Misfire on 2.5 4cyl - 4 Cylinder Gasoline - Ranger Engine Tech

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sheltonfilms
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For the past few weeks I've experienced a miss at idle. No solid or flashing check engine light so the misfire monitor isn't above the threshold for catalytic converter damage. Did have pending P0301 and every once in a while P0302.

It's been 100k miles since spark plugs and wires so I went ahead and swapped those out. Motorcraft plugs as always and the older plugs looked great (good color no deposits). Cleaned the throttle body butterfly while I was at it.

Did a compression test immediately after a drive to get temps up to normal. Throttle body held open:

cyl 1: 185
cyl 2: 180
cyl 3: 180
cyl 4: 170

Before removing wires I used a grounded test light to test all coil pack towers. All had good color spark and bright and was able to spark to about an inch away from the towers.

ST and LT fuel trims look great at closed loop. LT stays right at 0 and short term may be a max of postiive 4% to min of negative 3%. So I'm not thinking bad injector.

So I removed the IAC leaving the connector connected, fired up Forscan and started changing the IAC duty cycle. I can't see any changes. Do hear a little noise but no movement. IAC is closer to cylinders 4 and 3 so I could see this valve not being opened enough and starving cylinder 1 and sometimes 2. Ohmed out at 10 ohms.

With nothing connected the plunger it does allow some light though.
Anybody looked at the movement of the IAC before?

Last edited on Mon Jan 15th, 2018 02:24 pm by sheltonfilms

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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2018 03:02 pm

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sheltonfilms
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Vacuum Gauge and Compression Testing:

Last edited on Mon Jan 15th, 2018 03:02 pm by sheltonfilms

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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2018 05:40 pm

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I hear it is like a slow stepper motor, have never held one in my hand and watched it move. If you can make it move take a video!

I have one but have no idea if it is good or not, they only cost 30 bucks. If you want mine I'll dig it out and send it to you I still have most of the top end of my 2.5

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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2018 06:13 pm

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sheltonfilms
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I messed around with it some more and if the engine is running it does have an effect of idle speed changing the duty cycle.

I'm scratching my head big time on this misfire. I can find a point of attack on it.

Last edited on Mon Jan 15th, 2018 06:13 pm by sheltonfilms

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Injector possibly?

We have an injector tester at work (why I'm not sure since we are a diesel shop) and I have seen ones not start pulsing till a higher rpm all the way to stuck open, seems to be no logic. If you can tell which cylinder you could swap injectors to see. Else there might be some weird carbon tracks on your coils. Can't be spark plugs or wires since it acted the same after changing them. Well it could but it would be a huge coincidence.

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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2018 08:04 pm

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Just a wild guess, did you try cleaning the IAC?. On our last 99 Explorer Sport we had a idle problem & one of the techs at the Ford dealership I was working at told me to remove it & spray it with carb cleaner because they get gummed up & stick. Fixed our problem.

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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2018 08:24 pm

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Cleaned it when I cleaned the throttle body.

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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2018 08:35 pm

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It's fairly easy to test IAC operation, and i can't remember more than that right now! :( Sorry.

I looked up IAC cleaning videos and they included testing procedures too, mainly involving unplugging them if/when looking for open/close.

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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2018 09:11 pm

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Well I think I found a way to test it. I set forscan to read IAC duty cycle and RPM and then setup controls to change the duty cycle.

RPM follows IAC duty cycle changes except for anything below 20%. 20% and below stays the same RPM.
I took it for a drive and before I did that I cleared PCM adaptations. No misfires list in forscan and also no misfires counted in Mode $06. Idle is still kinda garbage at some points. Give it a slight bit of gas (like 1500 rpms) and I can fill it mis.

Last edited on Mon Jan 15th, 2018 09:13 pm by sheltonfilms

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I never did think it was IAC. High,low, pulsing idle.. IAC. Have never personally seen it cause a "miss".

If it is an injector I get a dollar. LOL

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JAMMAN wrote: I never did think it was IAC. High,low, pulsing idle.. IAC. Have never personally seen it cause a "miss".

If it is an injector I get a dollar. LOL

But why the hell are my fuel trims showing good? I can pull a tiny vacuum line and keep my finger over most of it so it's the tiniest of holes and my fuel trim will shoot right up to 35%.

What else should I be looking at? MPG seem alright (23 mpg combined) so I wouldn't think an O2 sensor is going out. Switching seems ok.

I know you can feel the bad idle when it is still in open loop at first startup.

Last edited on Mon Jan 15th, 2018 10:25 pm by sheltonfilms

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Fuel trims are what the engine *wants* - it tells the injectors, doesn't mean the injectors listen properly ;)

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Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2018 06:22 am

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The only thing that doesn't point at fuel injector is the miss in 1 and 2.

Swapping injectors 1 and 4 would disprove the injector theory if you were still getting P0301 and P0302 afterwards and it is only labor.

Now I'm thinking coil. Coils don't always follow normal failure protocol

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I'm wondering if these engines can even have an ignition based misfire since it has the dual spark setup. Even with one coil going bad the other one should take up the slack. One spark or wire goes bad the other side should keep it going.

I probably should have swapped injectors when I took the top intake plenum off for the spark plugs.

I guess next step is to mess with PCV valve. Also, need to do an IAC unplug test.

Last edited on Tue Jan 16th, 2018 10:21 am by sheltonfilms

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Well got a P0300 code in memory and I pulled up Mode $06 and see that it's still biased towards cylinder 1 and a little on cylinder 2.

Started thinking about about the IAC unplug but figured you don't have to do that if you set IAC duty cycle to 0%. Runs fine after warmed up.

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sheltonfilms wrote: I'm wondering if these engines can even have an ignition based misfire since it has the dual spark setup. Even with one coil going bad the other one should take up the slack. One spark or wire goes bad the other side should keep it going.

I probably should have swapped injectors when I took the top intake plenum off for the spark plugs.

I guess next step is to mess with PCV valve. Also, need to do an IAC unplug test. I know that when I had duel fire ignition on my 96 Harley it was always stumbling at idle. When I changed the ignition to single fire the bike smoothed out and ran much better.
I am on ignition number four. The replacement of #2 was because it was a cheap chinese knockoff that lasted just under 6 months. I do know the single fire causes premature spark plug failure and my truck has never had a very smooth idle.

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Posted: Tue Jan 16th, 2018 07:56 pm

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Tsquare wrote: sheltonfilms wrote: I'm wondering if these engines can even have an ignition based misfire since it has the dual spark setup. Even with one coil going bad the other one should take up the slack. One spark or wire goes bad the other side should keep it going.

I probably should have swapped injectors when I took the top intake plenum off for the spark plugs.

I guess next step is to mess with PCV valve. Also, need to do an IAC unplug test. I know that when I had duel fire ignition on my 96 Harley it was always stumbling at idle. When I changed the ignition to single fire the bike smoothed out and ran much better.
I am on ignition number four. The replacement of #2 was because it was a cheap chinese knockoff that lasted just under 6 months. I do know the single fire causes premature spark plug failure and my truck has never had a very smooth idle.
Did it have two spark plugs per cylinder or are you referring to waste spark (firing on combustion and exhaust stroke)?

Last edited on Tue Jan 16th, 2018 07:56 pm by sheltonfilms

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Waist spark is the same a duel fire. There are sometimes leftover explosive gases on the exhaust stroke that will ignite - this is where the rough idle comes from. It is very prevalent in V twins but I have had a rough idle in my Ranger since I got it.

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It's ironic this is the case when the V6 is the smoothest engine configuration made :whatever:

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Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2018 12:03 am

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What I was getting at is this Ranger has both waste and dual spark plugs firing. Contrary to popular belief both spark plugs in a cylinder fire at the same time (1 from each coil pack) as well as the cylinders complement cylinder (1 and 4, 2 and 3) as waste spark.

So at any given time there are four sparks happening (2 sparks in cylinder 1 during compression, and 2 in cylinder 4 during exhaust as waste).

Remove any coil pack and you still have a waste spark system, just spark plugs are firing on one side.

The only time this doesn't happen is during startup, where only the exhaust side fires until normal engine speed is met.

So if a wire is bad, a spark plug is bad, or even a coil, these engines should in theory still run fine.

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Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2018 01:08 am

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Both? really?

There is only one per cylinder, i don't think i'm truly getting what you're saying.

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Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2018 06:46 am

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Yes the 2.5 has 2 spark plugs per cylinder, 4 on the left, 4 on the right. I have seen them listed in craigslist before as an 8 cylinder :whatever:

It is commonly thought that the right side (passenger side in the US) only fire during the exhaust stroke which is what I was told but have never found solid evidence to prove it, that's why I didn't put it in this thread.

If Anthony says both are firing at the same time just double I would tend to believe it since he has been deeper into the systems than most people I have chatted with and has probably tracked the spark patterns on some sort of graph generated from some sort of gizmo he programmed using a laptop he found under a seat at a junk yard.

Now this is scary, my Dodge 4.7 had even compression throughout all the cylinders, nothing bogus in the oil,but a test revealed exhaust gasses in the coolant. Would miss at idle. Had a blown head gasket between 2 and 4 (same bank on a 4.7) but ran great beyond idle. :eek:

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Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2018 10:29 am

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Well I knew that each coil pack has shared coils (1 and 4 and 2 and 3) so each coil pack already had a waste spark setup. So the addition of the 2nd coil pack had nothing to do with it firing on the exhaust stroke or not. So it was kind of a hypothesis. Then pulling each coil pack connector confirmed it.

And also the part that the service manual says it works this way.
May have to rent a cooling system pressure tester.

Last edited on Wed Jan 17th, 2018 10:29 am by sheltonfilms

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Ahh ok, i didn't realise we were talking about the 4 cylinder.

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Since I'm pulling away from the IAC now, probably need to move this to the 4 cylinder section. Can the mods do this and also change title to Misfire on 2.5L?

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sheltonfilms wrote: Since I'm pulling away from the IAC now, probably need to move this to the 4 cylinder section. Can the mods do this and also change title to Misfire on 2.5L?
Done.

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Thank you.

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Information update.

The cold has made the issue a little worse, but luckily I got some good data to go off of.

When the truck started misfiring STFT went up to +15. Rev the engine a couple of times and it clears up. Rev it some more and it can come back. As the RPMs are going up it can still misfire but if you blip it right it goes away.

This is starting to sound like an injector. I wished I had an Oscope so I could see the voltage waveform. I guess I'll try to do a cylinder 1 to 4 swap this weekend.

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No vacuum/intake leaks, right?

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MaDMaXX wrote: No vacuum/intake leaks, right?
All vacuum lines have been checked, especially the ones that connect near the #1 cylinder. Also the throttle body and upper intake plenum gaskets were replaced with the spark plug changes.
If there is a leak it would be around the lower intake plenum, but I would think this could be ruled out due to the good vacuum gauge readings. If it was a vacuum leak I would expect some where around 5-10 inches of mg on the gauge.

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Got it, just checking.

Last time you ran any high % PEA content injector cleaner through it?

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Posted: Thu Jan 18th, 2018 12:56 am

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Only think I have ran in this truck is marvel mystery oil every once on a while (maybe once every two years).

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Hmm, i don't think that has any PEA in at all, never mind a high concentration.

Alright, well i smoothed out my similar sounding issue by cleaning my injectors this way.

PEA works by sitting on the injectors with the engine off, so it 'soaks', ie. use it when you're not going on a long run.

Techron super concentrate is a good one, autozone has it.
Redline S1 contains a similarly high amount of PEA.

I don't recall the other, but both of those are easy to acquire.
I ran a few ounces over the recommended amount, by the end of the tank, it was running more smoothly.

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Posted: Mon Jan 22nd, 2018 05:48 pm

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Hi Anthony, following up on the earlier inquiry.......

I read your problem statement and subsequent posts and replies that were relevant and had correct info. I'll get back to you shortly; along with the emission system in question I'm thinking about suggesting the possibility of invoking a feature in Torque Pro (it's prolly in in FORScan too).

****If you have Torque Pro on your phone or a tablet, have you added all of the available extended PID's to it?

Last edited on Mon Jan 22nd, 2018 05:51 pm by CBB9M

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Haven't tried it with the extended pids. I would really like to try to get a real-time individual cylinder misfire counter going.

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Remember what I said about Torque, if needed I can look today or on Friday.

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Bringing this issue back. Been dealing with it off and on. Not so much an issue in the summer but with the cold coming back it's more prevalent.

I think it's a sticking exhaust valve. I capped off all the vacuum lines and tested for leaks, nothing. Injectors seem fine (haven't done a flow test yet) and fuel pressure is perfect. Talked to a guy about the dual spark ignition and he said the redundant makes it rare for an ignition based misfire. Have to have 2 faults for failure.

The only test that I haven't performed is a running compression test, even though static looked fine.

I totally forgot about the paper over the tail pipe method and so today when it was running rough I put a receipt back there with my hand keeping it flat and sure enough every couple of seconds it would try to suck the receipt into the exhaust. This leads me to believe it's a sticking valve.

I guess I'm going to be pulling the valve cover and check it out. Hopefully I don't have to pull the head.

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Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2018 10:31 pm

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Flat spot on the cam? Dirty mass airflow sensor?

I've HEARD a little tranny fluid in you oil can free up stuck stuff but I've never needed to try it.

Techron is great in the fuel system, I've used it and it really works well. My truck had an ever so slight surge Idle I could only hear in the drive thru with walls on both sides of the truck. Put techron in it and the engine smoothed out. It was kinda weird cause it had always had great performance and acceleration but now it was really smooth at idle too.

Last edited on Thu Dec 20th, 2018 10:33 pm by Eddie Money

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Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2018 01:03 pm

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sheltonfilms
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Eddie Money wrote:
Flat spot on the cam? Dirty mass airflow sensor?

I've HEARD a little tranny fluid in you oil can free up stuck stuff but I've never needed to try it.

Techron is great in the fuel system, I've used it and it really

works well. My truck had an ever so slight surge Idle I could only hear in the drive thru with walls on both sides of the truck. Put techron in it and the engine smoothed out. It was kinda weird cause it had always had great performance and acceleration but now it was really smooth at idle too.
The issue is intermittent and doesn't show up on a cranking compression test, so to me this would eliminate a flat spot on the cam.

Fuel trims look pretty darn good through out the entire power band (there are occasions where the STFT go up to 15-18 at a stop light and go back to normal), plus it seems to be only cylinder 2 that is misfiring as I did a cylinder contribution/drop test. I pulled injector connectors instead of spark plugs because of the dual spark system and cylinder 2 was the only one that didn't make a difference. Cylinder 1 is fired right after cylinder 2 so I think the cylinder 2 misfire is causing cylinder 1 to pop up every now and then. Or maybe it's both Cylinder 1 and 2 sticking a different times and sometimes it's both (why I stall out on occasion due to only 2 cylinders firing).

Some MMO in the crankcase months ago seemed to help but that could have been a placebo effect. .

I'm thinking at the end of the day the valve cover is definitely going to have to come off. I may try the penetrating fluid, tap valve stem top method. Need to also inspect springs and possibly remove and clean the hydraulic lash adjusters (they have been ticking for years). I've bought 5 gallons of PSC 1000 (naptha) for my parts washer so I think that would be a good solvent for those.

A couple of tests I may do before the valve cover pull is an injector flow test just to eliminate those (got an injector pulser off Amazon for $30) and also try to do a running compression test.

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Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2018 02:23 pm

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In case you go the penetrating fluid route, the current best are Seafoam Deep Creep, and PB Blaster's penetrating fluid. Everything else, including my beloved Kroil, is ass :(

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Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2018 09:36 pm

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Eddie Money
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I feel like I'm the crazy coil guy cause I usually suspect the coil pack right off the bat. I'll explain why.

I drive a 99 F150 V8. Ive had so many issues with it this year. Its had a rough idle, sounded like a dead hole. Replaced a few coils, ran fine. Using pasting gear, sucked the crumbling intake gasket and began over heating. Replaced gasket and ran rough again. Mechanic cleaned mass air flow sensor and ran ok for a few miles. Lol. Changed a couple coils, ran fine again.

If it runs ok till it warms up I'm going coil all the way. I am not a mechanic, I'm just going off my experiences.

You've checked the ignition pretty thoroughly, you've ruled out vacuum leaks. How about fuel filter? Sometimes there is more than one and that's the one that's bad cause no one knew it was there. Bad fuel pump? Could be worn out or have a bad wire or lose connection that gets fussy when it gets jostled just right?

I'm mostly guessing, thinking of all the things I've had and heard that might cause your issue.

Have you tried a $20 bottle of techron? If it's so subtle and intermittent it could just be an dirty fuel line or injector and techron would fix that.

Last edited on Fri Dec 21st, 2018 09:38 pm by Eddie Money

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Posted: Tue Jan 1st, 2019 03:47 pm

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Eddie Money wrote:
I feel like I'm the crazy coil guy cause I usually suspect the coil pack right off the bat. I'll explain why.

I drive a 99 F150 V8. Ive had so many issues with it this year. Its had a rough idle, sounded like a dead hole. Replaced a few coils, ran fine. Using pasting gear, sucked the crumbling intake gasket and began over heating. Replaced gasket and ran rough again. Mechanic cleaned mass air flow sensor and ran ok for a few miles. Lol. Changed a couple coils, ran fine again.

If it runs ok till it warms up I'm going coil all the way. I am not a mechanic, I'm just going off my experiences.

You've checked the ignition pretty thoroughly, you've ruled out vacuum leaks. How about fuel filter? Sometimes there is more than one and that's the one that's bad cause no one knew it was there. Bad fuel pump? Could be worn out or have a bad wire or lose connection that gets fussy when it gets jostled just right?

I'm mostly guessing, thinking of all the things I've had and heard that might cause your issue.

Have you tried a $20 bottle of techron? If it's so subtle and intermittent it could just be an dirty fuel line or injector and techron would fix that.
Fuel filter was replaced a few weeks ago along with fuel pressure checks at idle and at 2500 rpms. Not drop in pressure so flow to the rail seems fine. I've already put some techron in the tank before.

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Posted: Wed Jan 2nd, 2019 09:38 pm

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Eddie Money
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Man I'm stumped. Lol. I could keep making guesses....critters chewing off wire insulation causing crossfire? Wires rubbing insulation off and contacting with engine? Water getting in the fuel....this is a tough one!!! With everything you've already done hopefully one of the mechanic guys can figure it out. Happy new year!!!

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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2019 08:16 pm

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Ok so I did a few things today:

Cleaned the throttle body. I did this previously with it in the vehicle so I took it completely out and cleaned it again. Wasn't much carbon.
Took coil packs off and clean the "grounding plate". Very corroded but I don't believe this really does anything but figured what the hell.
Remove MAF sensor just to look at it and it is spotless.
Tested fuel injectors using an injector timer and fuel pressure gauge (injector timer does 100 pulses at 3.5ms pulsewidths). Was able to get to injector 1,2, and 4 connectors and all 3 of those dropped from 63 psi to 52 psi when pulsed using the timer. So they all have the same flow rate.

As it stands right now I'm thinking it's one of a few things:

Something sticking in the head (like a valve).
Possible a coil pack cross firing?
Something killing the ignition or fuel timing. Drop in crank or cam sensor.

I'm starting to pull away from the valve train just because it will flat out stall after a high rev or after wide open throttle and let off. I feel if a valve was sticking it would still run off losing a cylinder. To me the stalling would be more of something that affects all cylinders.

Would this be a crankshaft sensor issue? I know these use a 2 wire sensor so the signal frequency and the voltage amplitude increases with speed. I'm wondering if it is dropping out or shorting out just a hair? Looks like the sensor is behind the water pump inlet tube and you have to remove it to get to the sensor.

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Posted: Sat Oct 12th, 2019 11:32 am

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Ok time to get dirty on this problem. I'm pulling the head today. I'm about 90% sure it's a worn/recessed valve seat issue. I found about 2 other old posts with guys having the same issue. Main issue is the flat out stall after a rev.

Theory and root cause analysis:

Truck misfires or stalls due to loss of compression on 1 or more cylinders.
Why? Exhaust valves aren't seating all the way.
Why? Hydraulic lash adjusters have pumped up during high revs.
Why? Valve spring force is less allowing HLA to pump up higher than normal.
Why? Valve height is taller allowing for less valve spring force.
WHy? Valve seats are recessed causing taller valve height.
Why? Valve seat material has worn away from high millage.

I've justified the theory by paying for a 1 month subscription to IATN to see what actual technicians have seen. There are many that had the same exact symptoms and all had recessed valve seats. Good thing about IATN is it filters out all the armchair quarterback mechanic responses. Worth the $20 bucks to see the knowledge base.

It's a very hard diagnosis and the only way I can see diagnosing it is to rev the crap out of the truck and have it die and immediately do a compression test. The dollar bill over the exhaust also is a big indicator. If you had access to scope and an amp clamp you would probably see the ignition wave form show a low compression situation on the rev. Exhaust pressure transducer readings I would think would also show this.

This is exactly like the Vulcan 3.0 issue that ford had a tsb for but the 3.0 is a pushrod engine and doesn't have the same HLA setup like the LIMA. So those usually have constant low compression.

I also don't believe there was a TSB for this since it mostly occurs on really high millage vehicles.

So hopefully tonight or tomorrow I can confirm my theory/hypothesis.

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Got the head off and I was correct. Cylinder 1 was recessed pretty bad. Cylinder 2 just a tad. 3 and 4 are flush with the valve seat deck. I'm posting cylinder 1 and cylinder 4 for comparison. The burn residue looked the same on 2-4 and cylinder 1 looked clean. Only major issue I see with this head is possible crack between valves as you can see. We'll see what the machine shop says on Monday. Hopefully they can fix as they are very reputable and I don't want to take a chance on a reman.

Cylinder 1:

Cylinder 4:

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Nicely done
I was leaning towards an injector after reading all of this

Watching along to see if the valves are the issue
I do not do alot with the 4 cylinders in fact I have only ever worked on one in the last 25 years.

keep up the good work, lets see what the machine shop says

If you put it back together just for giggles swap the injector locations

Last edited on Sun Oct 13th, 2019 10:11 am by 410customs

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410customs wrote:
Nicely done
I was leaning towards an injector after reading all of this

Watching along to see if the valves are the issue
I do not do alot with the 4 cylinders in fact I have only ever worked on one in the last 25 years.

keep up the good work, lets see what the machine shop says

If you put it back together just for giggles swap the injector locations
I was actually thinking of getting a fuel line connector from the junkyard and setup an off vehicle injector cleaner setup. Already got the injector pulser tool.

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Posted: Sun Oct 13th, 2019 10:52 am

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I will have a complete injector tester as soon as I can get out in the shed at work. They shelved one. It has 10 graduates I can flow test.

Hey I have a fuel rail and injectors off a 2.5 I don't need. If you need them just pay shipping I'll send them your way.

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JAMMAN wrote:
I will have a complete injector tester as soon as I can get out in the shed at work. They shelved one. It has 10 graduates I can flow test.

Hey I have a fuel rail and injectors off a 2.5 I don't need. If you need them just pay shipping I'll send them your way.
Thanks for the offer but I think I'm good at the moment. I think I'm going to go straight into putting it back together.

An update since my last post:

I got it to a machine shop and they magnafluxed it and found 3 of the 4 chambers had cracks. Time to get a reman.

Found one at Allied Motor Parts somewhere near Atlanta. Ordered and had it the next day (today). $330 shipped with camshaft, lash adjusters, and roller followers. $50 core with prepaid label. Not too bad considering machine shop was going to charge about $250.

So far I just opened the box to take a quick look and I was wrong about the factory valve head height (if they machined this correctly). The valve heads are 0.050" proud of the seats. So this makes the recession on mine as follows:
Cyl 1: 0.080"
Cyl 2: 0.070"
Cyl 3: 0.050"
Cyl 4: 0.050"

Someone on another post said the lash adjusters only had about a 0.60" stroke so cylinder 1 and 2 should have had 0 lash as they bottomed out the HLA travel.

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Posted: Mon Oct 21st, 2019 11:26 am

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Well I thought this was going to be a smooth process, but I thought wrong.

Cleaned up the block and ran a tap through the holes to clean them out. Put the gasket on, head on, torqued to 51 ft lbs and then re-torqued.

Now time for the 90 degree additional turn. Picked up a Torque angle gauge for perfection.

Got to about 80-85 degrees on the first bolt and. POP! Oh no. Pulled the bolt out and it was fine. Looked down and IT PULLED THE THREADS OUT OF THE ENGINE BLOCK!

Picked up a helicoil kit and fixed it.

Bolt torqued fine, until the 5th bolt and the same thing happened.

Did I weaken the threads with the tap? Maybe my wrench is off?

The first hole did look like the tap was off and cut into the main threads and took so material out but the other ones looked fine under a quick inspection.

I know I'll have to coil the 5th bolt but do I go ahead and do all?

Simple job is starting to look like a nightmare.

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Posted: Mon Oct 21st, 2019 12:27 pm

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51 ftlbs +90 degrees sounds a hell of a lot - are you sure the torque isn't 21 ftlbs + 90?

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Chris wrote:
51 ftlbs +90 degrees sounds a hell of a lot - are you sure the torque isn't 21 ftlbs + 90?
It's definitely 51 ft lbs, also lists as 70 Newton meters, which is 51 for lbs.

in Chilton, Alldata, and Factory service manual

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Posted: Mon Oct 21st, 2019 07:21 pm

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New head bolts or reused old ones?

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Tsquare wrote:
New head bolts or reused old ones?
New Felpro TTY bolts.

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I suspect too heavy heat treat on the bolts. If 2 did it the threads are stretched on all, I would take it off, get a new gasket, get new bolts from another vendor and coil all the holes.

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Posted: Tue Oct 22nd, 2019 08:13 am

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JAMMAN wrote:
I suspect too heavy heat treat on the bolts. If 2 did it the threads are stretched on all, I would take it off, get a new gasket, get new bolts from another vendor and coil all the holes.
I'm kinda torn on that thought. I would think the bolt would break.

only issue I have with coiling all holes is just increasing my chances of something going wrong (Drill wrong angle, break tap). Since cast iron is so hard and brittle I wouldn't think they would have â€œweakenedâ€ threads like aluminum or steel would.

I think right My plan is to pull it off, coil the one, and throughly inspect the others. I'm thinking my tapping may have been off Could be the cause. Or the torque wrench, which I'm gonna get a new digital one I think.

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Dang that SUCKS!! I hate doing head gaskets I would rather drop in a new/used engine 90% of the time.

Battle on.....

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Well I made some progress today. I picked up a harden steel drill guide made by Big Gator Tools to drill the next helicoil straight (last one was off a hair). Also picked up an Irwin tap socket since it was in close quarters and doesn't allow my Greenfield tap handle to work. Also picked up one of the new Quinn digital 1/2â€ torque wrenches from Harbor Freight. Best part is it measures angles.

For the other 5 untested bolt holes, I decided to test them out. I kept the head on and torqued all 5 to spec, loosening after each torque to prevent warpage. All held.

Took and old POS aluminum throttle body spacer and drilled and tapped a hole to bolt the drill guide to it to make it more stable. Drilled the hole no problem. I then took the throttle body spacer and tapped it with the helicoil tap on the bench. This made a guide to allow the tap to be started straight in the engine. Put it on the engine and it worked like a charm.

I went ahead and picked up a new gasket and new bolts just to be safe. I didn't see any stretch to them like the factory ones but didn't want to take any chances.

Moment of truth..........torqued all 10 and they all are holding. Wooooo. Nerve racking part over. Btw peak torque for all bolts was 100-110ft lbs in case anyone was wondering.

Threads that popped out of bolt #5

Helicoil installed

Drill guide mounted to throttle spacer plate

Pre tapped hole to keep alignment.

Last edited on Sun Oct 27th, 2019 10:19 pm by sheltonfilms

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Nice work Anthony! The idea of using the throttle spacer as an alignment guide is pure genius!

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mhoward wrote:
Nice work Anthony! The idea of using the throttle spacer as an alignment guide is pure genius!
Probably the most good it's ever done in its life.

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Posted: Wed Oct 30th, 2019 09:28 am

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well done
Im a tool whore so to hear about whats available to solve problems has me drool drool

110 ft lbs!!! That 90 degree turn sure adds alot!
Harbor freight rules man!

fingers crossed for the 4 banger

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Posted: Wed Oct 30th, 2019 11:10 am

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410customs wrote:
well done
Im a tool whore so to hear about whats available to solve problems has me drool drool

110 ft lbs!!! That 90 degree turn sure adds alot!
Harbor freight rules man!

fingers crossed for the 4 banger
It probably hit 100 ft lbs in the first 10-15 degrees I bet. Cast iron head and cast iron block don't give much cushion so that torque curve is probably pretty steep once the bolt head seats. The rest was the bolt stretching because it felt pretty constant along the sweep like it was yielding.

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Posted: Wed Oct 30th, 2019 11:53 am

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That's what it should feel like when you do TTY bolts on the heads....good news! Helicoils are a life saver

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410customs wrote:
That's what it should feel like when you do TTY bolts on the heads....good news! Helicoils are a life saver
It was my first time using one in such a high torque application. Actually had me worried because most videos or posts I see say Time Serts are better. So I decided to dig into this.

What I found is the first few videos on YT are from a guy saying time serts are better. Well he sells time serts and I'm sure the profit margin is higher on those.

Helicoils are listed in NASA technical documentation, Time serts are not.

I've found that people say that the helicoil being a wound wire is a con, but it turns out it isn't as it's ability to "breathe" and move helps it hold more force. This movement allows for inconsistencies in cut threads. Also found out that a bolt in a solid insert or sold hole has 75% of the force on the first 2 threads, but if using a helicoil 80% of the force is spread across the first 4 threads.

Also found a machinists that did torque and pull out force testing of different ones, and the helicoil performed well, even better than the time sert. Check it out when you guys have time. Very interesting.

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Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2019 11:16 am

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heck yes! knowledge is power

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The Time Sert works better for replacing spark plug threads in the Triton 5.4 than a Helicoil. For most applications the Helicoil works great. Add heat and pressure then the Time Sert is what you want to use.

I have a buddy with a Lightening that blew a few plugs. The Helicoil repairs ended up blowing again. The Time Sert fixed the problem. He ended up pulling the heads, replacing one, and Time Serted every plug. BTW: this is not a standard Lightening as it is pushing just over 500 HP.

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Posted: Sat Nov 2nd, 2019 09:40 am

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JAMMAN

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They both have their usages. I have never heard the term "timesert" I know them as "Keenserts". The biggest place helicoils are a no nos in applications where the hole is WAY worn, outside the drill size for the helicoil. There is another kind of insert like a keensert that has no tines (maybe it is supposed to be a "tinesert"?) that some german manufacturers use to make threads stronger in aluminum. No tines means they can effectively be removed and replaced.

The advantages of Keenserts and the german style is they use standard tap sizes for the insert. One might think this isn't a big deal but when you only have one helicoil tap and some butt plug has borrowed it thinking it was a regular tap dulling the living crap out of it without your knowledge... then you have a project that has to go out...

A dull helicoil tap can produce a situation where the helicoil can be inserted but the end result thread is too small and the bolt gets bound up.

Been a machinist since early 80's I've endured all of this multiple times.

Because helicoil taps are a special grind they are not produced in the masses that regular taps are. They are often weaker and harder to obtain.

So both have their uses. A helicoil tapped wrong or inserted wrong or if the coil is too long or too short for the hole can be a big problem. Keenserts are no brainers but there is often not enough room to drill the larger hole required for them.

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Posted: Tue Nov 12th, 2019 06:08 pm

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sheltonfilms
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JAMMAN wrote:
They both have their usages. I have never heard the term "timesert" I know them as "Keenserts". The biggest place helicoils are a no nos in applications where the hole is WAY worn, outside the drill size for the helicoil. There is another kind of insert like a keensert that has no tines (maybe it is supposed to be a "tinesert"?) that some german manufacturers use to make threads stronger in aluminum. No tines means they can effectively be removed and replaced.

The advantages of Keenserts and the german style is they use standard tap sizes for the insert. One might think this isn't a big deal but when you only have one helicoil tap and some butt plug has borrowed it thinking it was a regular tap dulling the living crap out of it without your knowledge... then you have a project that has to go out...

A dull helicoil tap can produce a situation where the helicoil can be inserted but the end result thread is too small and the bolt gets bound up.

Been a machinist since early 80's I've endured all of this multiple times.

Because helicoil taps are a special grind they are not produced in the masses that regular taps are. They are often weaker and harder to obtain.

So both have their uses. A helicoil tapped wrong or inserted wrong or if the coil is too long or too short for the hole can be a big problem. Keenserts are no brainers but there is often not enough room to drill the larger hole required for them.
Good info.

Update on progress:
Well the wife works 3 nights a week and that leaves me with 4 kids to watch after (1, 4,6, and 8). So this has pushed me back a little on putting it back together.

I got the timing belt back on this weekened. I remember timing it being a pain but this time I think i found the trick. When checking the indicators I found it easier to line up the oil and cam sprocket first and seeing how the crankshaft sprocket sits. If you try to line the crank one up and check the other two it always seems to be off. One way is just more sensitive than the other. Hope this makes sense.

With a "new" head you have to install the camshaft seal. Started out being a pain because you tap one side in and the other side wants to pop out. Look around for something that had a bore similar to the camshaft and voila! That good old trust throttle body spacer was close enough to work. Just put a piece of steel bar with a hole in the middle across it and used the camshaft sprocket bolt to pull it in. Seated the seal perfectly.

Intake, exhaust, and misc will hopefully be done this weekend.

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Posted: Sun Nov 24th, 2019 06:18 pm

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sheltonfilms
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Success!

Finally got the last bit done today and started it up. Started up with a high rev of about 3k rpms for about 10 seconds and then came down. During this time I had an awful sound from the valve train waiting for the lifters to pump up. I covered the new head with assembly lube and poured a quart on it before putting the valve cover on so I knew I covered that.

Ran for about 10 minutes to get it up to temp to fill the cooling system. Since the coolant looked awful I'm running a bottle of Thermocure in it and will swap it out in a week before we see freezing temps. During this time it still had knock/tick to it.

Shut it down and went to lunch with the family. Got back and decided to pull it out for a ride. Knock noise was gone and she drove so smoothe. Kinda weird pulling up to red lights without having to hold the brake and give it some gas.

I also got a little bit of pickup back. I assume I will recover some fuel economy from this.

So overall a success. I think we should re-title this to â€œ Misfire Stalling after High Revs, Runs fine above idle (Solved!)â€

I will provide a total cost breakdown later.

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Posted: Sun Nov 24th, 2019 07:42 pm

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mhoward
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Glad you got this done, Anthony! Great job! :)

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Posted: Sun Nov 24th, 2019 11:26 pm

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mhoward wrote:
Glad you got this done, Anthony! Great job! :)
Me too. I thought I was going to have to finally break down and pay someone to do something for me.

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Posted: Tue Nov 26th, 2019 08:34 am

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JAMMAN

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sheltonfilms wrote:
mhoward wrote:

Glad you got this done, Anthony! Great job! :)
Me too. I thought I was going to have to finally break down and pay someone to do something for me.

NOOOOO! Only you can trust you when working on the truck :) I'll pay for having tires mounted that's about all. Glad to hear things are looking good.

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Posted: Tue Nov 26th, 2019 10:24 am

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mhoward
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JAMMAN wrote:
sheltonfilms wrote:

mhoward wrote:

Glad you got this done, Anthony! Great job! :)
Me too. I thought I was going to have to finally break down and pay someone to do something for me.

NOOOOO! Only you can trust you when working on the truck :) I'll pay for having tires mounted that's about all. Glad to hear things are looking good.
You PAY to have tires mounted? I just dismounted 9 tires and mounted new ones on the wheels in the last 10 days. Does my back hurt? You bet! But shops around here want $20 a piece to break a tire down and mount a new one... even if you BUY the tires from them. Sorry, but they can go fly a kite (that's the NICE way to say what I think)!

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Posted: Wed Nov 27th, 2019 04:24 pm

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Well I do pay for mounting and balancing of tires and alignments.

I did an alignment before and it was hell getting it just right. For $65, I'll just pay someone.

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Posted: Wed Nov 27th, 2019 04:32 pm

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mhoward
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Yeah, I'll pay for an alignment as I don't have the equipment or know-how to do it myself. Balancing is another thing I will pay for. Our local Super Walmart balances tires for $9 each (on or off the car).

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Posted: Thu Nov 28th, 2019 10:43 am

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Idahome

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I do alignments in house
Angle gauge, 4 jack stands, some string and a way to measure 1/16" of an inch

sooooooooooooooooooooo glad the engine is back together and working sheesh what a fiasco

Last edited on Thu Nov 28th, 2019 10:44 am by 410customs

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Posted: Thu Nov 28th, 2019 11:05 am

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I don't understand enough about the geometry of it to do my own alignment.

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Posted: Thu Nov 28th, 2019 09:14 pm

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410customs wrote:
I do alignments in house
Angle gauge, 4 jack stands, some string and a way to measure 1/16" of an inch

sooooooooooooooooooooo glad the engine is back together and working sheesh what a fiasco
That's how I did it the one time. Well instead of angle plates I got some cheap cutting boards and put grease between them.

Took a while, but I was pretty confident in setting it up right. Took it to Pep Boys and it was all pretty dead on.......No charge for the alignment if it's all green. :P

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Posted: Thu Nov 28th, 2019 11:48 pm

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JAMMAN

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LOL@ cutting boards and grease. I now have something new to try.

If you ever end up by fate in the Columbus ohio area you're hired.

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Posted: Fri Nov 29th, 2019 10:19 am

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Idahome

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I can get my alignment within 1/16" and within 1/4 of a degree using string and angle gauge.
I do all of our trucks here EXCEPT the FJ cruiser...screw that I tried let the pros adjust that bad boy.
There are several good youtube videos on how to adjust your toe with string its really easy. The camber adjustments are a little more advanced with the angle gauge, but still do able.
Save so much $$$$ and time and I KNOW where my alignment is

toe is 1/16" in per side (1/8" toe in total)
Camber is set at 0 degrees (I run big tires, I found 0 works good for me!)

Last edited on Fri Nov 29th, 2019 10:20 am by 410customs

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