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Frame questions       #: 2174
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 Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2020 10:36 am
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JAMMAN

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 I did a little research but my questions span farther than anything I have seen so far.

black06xlt Adam here I know for sure has taken the rear half of a frame from an extended cab and repaired his by grinding rivets and bolting. I don't know if he welded or not.

I don't remember seeing 410 Jamie talking about frames but I bet he has done a few also.

I'll pose the questions and then my reasons afterward.

So far I am specifically asking in the 99/2000 years but if years match from 98 forward please indicate if you know.

1. Is there a difference from the cab back for a short bed single cab ranger opposed to an extended cab ranger being all ex cabs had a short bed?

2. Do all the frames have rivets between the cab and back section?

3. Is there a difference in the rear half of a short cab frame from a straight bed model to a steppie bed model?

4. Is there any difference in the rear half of the frame from a 2WD to a 4WD model?

Reason,

This truck I just picked up and posted about has a bunch of parts that are in way better than average shape from the cab forward. Like it was frozen in time.
The frame however is rather unsafe IMO from the middle of rear wheels back. 410's theory about being a boat launching truck would seem to fit being some of that rear would be in water from time to time.

I have access to a bunch of inexpensive rear frame sections, and I own one myself on a truck who's cab corner is so bad I have decided not to use it. So far LOL.

I still have to drag this thing home throw a battery in it and figure out why they think the timing chain is busted on a 3.0 that never busts a timing chain. He thought it was a 4.0 and heard horror stories about guides that only happened after 2001 and this truck is a 2000 with a 3.0 LOL. This is why he got rid of it. He said the guy he got it from (his brother) said it turned freely like the cam wasn't connected to the crank. I'm thinking maybe a stripped starter or broken flex plate but who knows. It didn't have a battery.

So this might be a perfectly viable vehicle. It sets straight and level right to left, no reason why someone shouldn't be driving it. But if necessary there could be a frame grafted to it to give it a second life.


I guess I can't save them all but really feel like it is my duty to rescue rangers bound for the scrap yard and put them on the road again. Maybe therapy would help....



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 Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2020 03:07 pm
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VelociRanger
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 I too asked a frame question a while ago, but nobody seems to really know. It's all hit and miss contradicting responses. There's no pdf online either of the dimension through the years. It may be time to take out the measuring tape!!



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1983 Ranger, reluctantly taking apart. Donor/project vehicle.

1997 Ranger Ex Cab Manual 4.0 2wd, dead on arrival. Hopefully reviving for a daily driver.

1984 Ranger, currently in ≈861 pieces. She’s donating what’s salvageable.
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 Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2020 04:28 pm
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JAMMAN

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 WELL since I will literally have all 4 options within feet of each other in a few days I'll take some measurements. Maybe.



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 Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2020 07:56 pm
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VelociRanger
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 Hey, try the ol eyeball measurin tape. You're only wrong once or twice lol.



____________________
knowing when to quit is wisdom, being able to quit is courage.

1983 Ranger, reluctantly taking apart. Donor/project vehicle.

1997 Ranger Ex Cab Manual 4.0 2wd, dead on arrival. Hopefully reviving for a daily driver.

1984 Ranger, currently in ≈861 pieces. She’s donating what’s salvageable.
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 Posted: Fri Jun 19th, 2020 10:43 pm
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Scrambler82
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 There was a Thread, either here or The other Ranger Forum, the subject was removing the rear of a short bed Extended Cab Ranger frame and adding a long bed, standard cab, frame rear section.

I don't remember the actual wheel base but it was a decent looking truck.

My only thought is the way the frames are connected, is based on the wheel base, if you extend a given frame, you need to adjust the mating method to handle the extra load in the middle of the frame, maybe even the spring perches; at least I would look at these things !

Here is the Thread, yes it is not from here but an interesting read:

https://www.ranger-forums.com/general-ford-ranger-discussion-15/ford-ranger-extended-cab-long-bed-build-159850/

Looks good and give you extra room where needed.

Ltr



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2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK; now Mike's Welding and Fabrication.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
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 Posted: Sat Jun 20th, 2020 10:17 am
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black06xlt
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 98-2011 are the same 2wd or 4wd and any cab configuration. As long as its the rear. The front half of the frame is different between 2wd 4wd and cab configuration. I use grade 8 1/2" bolts on the ones I do



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 Posted: Sat Jun 20th, 2020 12:02 pm
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Scrambler82
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 Question, since the OEM Standard is Riveted Frame Rails, what is the best method of reconnecting the sections of the Frame IF you were to change things around ?

Everyone will come up with Grade 8 or 10 Bolts, but if the connecting bolts are too hard that can cause problems too.

Would you add additional plating along the connecting points, welded or bolted as the frame ?

Just thinking out loud !

Ltr

Last edited on Sat Jun 20th, 2020 12:03 pm by Scrambler82



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Ltr,
2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK; now Mike's Welding and Fabrication.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
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 Posted: Sat Jun 20th, 2020 02:14 pm
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JAMMAN

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 I think if you put an actual strain gauge in that area you would find that a grade 5 in theory would work.

I've done a little strain and breaking analysis just in seeing how much torque it takes to strip bolts and break them. You would be freaking amazed how much it takes to "shear" a bolt, I don't think a Ranger has the weight to do it, even pulling trailers and hauling loads within specs (which are conservative a lot of us have discovered).

Material and heat treat method has more to do with shear than the "grade" of the bolt. I guarantee you can drill right through those rivets and they never give out.

I'm sure most fabbers with a welder probably throw a bead on there after bolting.

I would trust the bolts myself, if I do try this I will just rely on the bolts. There is more torque on your engine mounts and it is held down with one nut on the frame side.

Just typing out loud!



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 Posted: Sat Jun 20th, 2020 03:06 pm
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Scrambler82
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 JAMMAN wrote:
I think if you put an actual strain gauge in that area you would find that a grade 5 in theory would work.

I've done a little strain and breaking analysis just in seeing how much torque it takes to strip bolts and break them. You would be freaking amazed how much it takes to "shear" a bolt, I don't think a Ranger has the weight to do it, even pulling trailers and hauling loads within specs (which are conservative a lot of us have discovered).

Material and heat treat method has more to do with shear than the "grade" of the bolt. I guarantee you can drill right through those rivets and they never give out.

I'm sure most fabbers with a welder probably throw a bead on there after bolting.

I would trust the bolts myself, if I do try this I will just rely on the bolts. There is more torque on your engine mounts and it is held down with one nut on the frame side.

Just typing out loud!
The "give" is what I was thinking of, grade 8 and above will just pop instead of stretching.

Does one of the frame sections, fit inside of the other, that would lock things up some.

Did you get a chance to read that post on the other Site ?
They have the truck next to each other and you can see a lot of frame info.

Ltr

ADDED: 

Was looking at the other Thread/Site, it appears that the frame sections do interlock, that alone should reduce the shearing problems.
If I wasn't already into this '03 Short Bed.std Cab, that could have been the next project.
The color, Quicksand Tan, I was thinking on repainting my E4 RED Ranger in that exact color, now at least I know what it will look like and I DO like it.
Another thing added to the project, if I can only get my sh!t together and start it !

Last edited on Sat Jun 20th, 2020 03:39 pm by Scrambler82



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Ltr,
2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK; now Mike's Welding and Fabrication.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
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 Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2020 07:04 pm
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black06xlt
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 Scrambler82 wrote:
Question, since the OEM Standard is Riveted Frame Rails, what is the best method of reconnecting the sections of the Frame IF you were to change things around ?

Everyone will come up with Grade 8 or 10 Bolts, but if the connecting bolts are too hard that can cause problems too.

Would you add additional plating along the connecting points, welded or bolted as the frame ?

Just thinking out loud !

Ltr
I used grade 8 flange bolts on mine. Torqued to 80 foot pounds. Been about 3 years ago and no issues



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 Posted: Mon Jun 22nd, 2020 08:38 pm
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JAMMAN

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 Found pics in post #7 of this thread..



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 Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2020 10:16 am
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chris

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 You could, of course, use rivets - not that hard to set rivets! The advantage is that the rivet shank will expand in the holes so that the parts cannot fret.


I often peen over the projecting thread if I don't want a nut to work loose, far faster and easier to do than weld unless space is limited.



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 Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2020 10:58 am
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JAMMAN

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 A hydraulic rivet gun needed? I have thread rivets



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 Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2020 11:09 am
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chris

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 I don't mean nut rivets but proper, solid, ship type rivets.

I clamp the parts together (you can use nut & bolt through a spare hole to start) then hold a heavy dolly on the head side of the rivet and hit the other side with a big hammer to set it (swell it into the holes) and then peen the end over.

You can buy setting punches that have a hollowed out end to reproduce the domed end if you want.



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 Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2020 04:14 pm
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Scrambler82
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 Chris wrote:
I don't mean nut rivets but proper, solid, ship type rivets.

I clamp the parts together (you can use nut & bolt through a spare hole to start) then hold a heavy dolly on the head side of the rivet and hit the other side with a big hammer to set it (swell it into the holes) and then peen the end over.

You can buy setting punches that have a hollowed out end to reproduce the domed end if you want.
Interesting, very intersting !

Would you set the rivets hot or cold ?

Don't peen the edge too much leave the edges at a reasonable thickness.


Jamman, IF you do happen to Rivet make sure you have a video of the process !



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Ltr,
2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK; now Mike's Welding and Fabrication.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
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 Posted: Tue Jun 23rd, 2020 07:58 pm
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 I might not do it at all, I still have to get the truck, wash the frame well and see what it looks like. I might take the cab and send the rest to the bone yard. I have to do it this week.



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 Posted: Fri Jun 26th, 2020 12:35 am
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VelociRanger
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 I can personally tell you that the shear strength of a grade 8 bolt must be insane; This a piece of the blades we used at work to cut stone. The big center nut is only there to keep the blade from coming off the spindle, the 2 grade 8 bolts are there to keep the blade from rotating on the spindle and backing itself off as it cuts the stone....I kinda explained that weird but hopefully you get the picture. 




I have a size 11 boot on lol. These blades easily weigh 100lbs and cut through stone, with a giant motor spinning it. We've never sheared a grade 8 bolt. Ever. So I'm pretty sure they'll be okay for use in a frame

Last edited on Fri Jun 26th, 2020 12:36 am by VelociRanger



____________________
knowing when to quit is wisdom, being able to quit is courage.

1983 Ranger, reluctantly taking apart. Donor/project vehicle.

1997 Ranger Ex Cab Manual 4.0 2wd, dead on arrival. Hopefully reviving for a daily driver.

1984 Ranger, currently in ≈861 pieces. She’s donating what’s salvageable.
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 Posted: Fri Jun 26th, 2020 10:16 am
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 I don't think the issue is shear strength. Unless the bolt fills the holes perfectly then the joint can move and fret the bolts.
To do so you cannot use screws (thread to head) and any bolt will have to have a very short shank. Ideally a specialist bolt fitted into reamed holes would do, but why bother when a solid rivet does the job perfectly?



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 Too much work Chris, this is the USA. I'm not going to sit there and beat on a rivet, hit my finger with a sledge, go to ER and pay 2000 to have someone wrap it up and give me a bottle of aspirin.

I might buy the hydraulic tool though if I can find one!

6 bolts is fine for a ranger frame, shackles.

Not saying you are not right, of course your point is valid.



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 Posted: Fri Jun 26th, 2020 11:19 am
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 First off, Chris is correct in his statement about needing to fill the hole, i.e. Rivet, the idea is to stop ANY movement.  That's why the rivet as such a pain to remove.

The guy that did the back half frame swap on Ranger-Forums.com, see link above postings, he used bolts then reenforced with1/4" Plate.

The Ford Channel Frames move a lot more that people think, the slight movement will cause the problem.


Any how, good luck on the project, do it the best you can with what you have, that is all you can do !

The link I am talking about, the guy did a Extended Cab with a long bed, at first I didn't see it then it popped at me.

Looks good !

Last edited on Fri Jun 26th, 2020 11:20 am by Scrambler82



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Ltr,
2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK; now Mike's Welding and Fabrication.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
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 Posted: Fri Jun 26th, 2020 06:40 pm
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 What size is the hole? Tap it out to a grade 8 fine pitch thread. One the bolt is tight torque a nut on and peen it or use super red locktight. 

There is some math that can be done to find the optimal bolt size with the required torque to mate two pieces of steel  of "x" thickness. I sort of remember the lecture in college but not the the formula or what it was called.



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 Posted: Fri Jun 26th, 2020 10:36 pm
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 Not to say a grade eight threaded bolt will fail or not BUTT... a treaded bolt is weaker than a bolt with a shoulder; the shoulder needs to fit tight in the hole,  (I won't say anything further on that subject), and not protrude beyond the thickness of the two pieces of metal !

IF... you can size the hole to be slightly smaller than the bolt shoulder, put the bolt in the freezer for an hour or two and then slide it in the hole, maybe a small amount of light hammer work.    Then put the hardware and nut on and tighten a little, just enough to hold it snug.    After allowing the bolt to get warm and expand, tighten the bolt to torque specifications for the size bolt you are using, it should be the tightest it can be for a bolt.

We are only talking thousandths of an inch difference in diameter between the bolt and the hole, but with Jamman's knowledge base it should be a breeze.

Just thinking out loud, hope you get it together without a lot of hassle.

Ltr



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Ltr,
2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK; now Mike's Welding and Fabrication.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
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 Posted: Tue Jun 30th, 2020 05:15 pm
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black06xlt
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 When I did mine and the other 6 or 7 trucks I've done. I drilled all the holes to 1/2" and used 1/2" flange bolts



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