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Last couple inches #: 880

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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2018 08:47 pm

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1qaz
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Ok, what techniques have you all used to get the last two inches of the transmission to the back of the block during reinstallation?

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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2018 10:04 pm

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Wiggle, push, wiggle wiggle push, cuss a little, give up for a while, walk away, go back half hour later.

It eventually does go in.

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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2018 07:45 am

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Be sure the torque converter is completely seated. Last slush box I put in if you weren't careful it would still be out by about 1/4". And if you torque it that way you would break the pump gear.

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Scrambler82 ,squirrelhunter

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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2018 08:35 am

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His profile says that he has a manual transmission.

The usual problem is misalignment of the clutch disc. Even a small amount can make reassembly difficult or impossible.

Try recentering the disc with the alignment tool. The soft plastic tools that sometimes come in clutch kits are not particularly accurate. If you can't make that tool work, a steel or aluminum tool is usually much better but obviously not as cheap.

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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2018 09:11 am

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I think I'm ok on the alignment.

I think it's just lining up the input shaft splines and the wiggle, push method mentioned by Jamman while lying on my back. Several YouTube videos show the same challenge I'm having...I figure I'll have to acquire same scar tissue...was hoping someone had an easy button.

Thanks for the replies guys.

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squirrelhunter

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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2018 12:03 pm

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You may a bur on the input shaft or in the splines of the clutch. If you have one or the other a few passes with a file will clean it up and take care of the problem. And like V8 Level 2 said it could be an alignment issue. I've seen the plastic tools not be 100% true and misalign the clutch. Or the input shaft could be bent. Also check the pilot bearing for any defects

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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2018 12:08 pm

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OOH did you put a new pilot bearing in? I have seen them be undersized and need to be reamed first. If you know a machinist have them mic the input shaft and use a telescope gauge on the bearing to see if it is even possible to get the thing in.

Been ages since I had to put a manual in but I remember it being a pain.

Dreaded sled works at a tranny shop might be able to shed some light.

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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2018 12:31 pm

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Sometimes, using the plastic tool, the weight of the clutch disc itself is enough to let the spline drop into a slight misalignment and the alignment needs to be near perfect. Some plastic tools are better than others but you couldn't really expect the best to be included for "free" in a clutch kit.

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Scrambler82 ,squirrelhunter

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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2018 08:53 pm

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Also, when putting the Transmission in place just a slight drop in the front of the trans can cause the clutch disc to move, then the problem starts to get interesting.

I take four long bolts, they don't need to be hardened, just the proper size, and cut off the heads, clean up the cut ends, and use them as alignment Studs. When doing this job in the vehicle you may only be able to use the lower two bolt positions because of available space to get the studs out. Also, you may need to size the Bolt/Studs for the available space under the truck, one step at a time... !

By using the two lower bolt positions, you reduce the possibility of the front of the trans dropping and misaligning the clutch disc.

I have found this method to work both in and out of the vehicle, harder in the vehicle but it will work with a little length adjustments.

Good Luck !

Last edited on Sat May 26th, 2018 08:54 pm by Scrambler82

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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2018 09:43 pm

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Thanks for the replies. I did replace the pilot bearing...genuine Ford part...test fitted it on the input shaft before installation. I picked up a couple 10mm x 100mm extensions today...used them in the bottom two bell housing to engine bolt holes. I'm pretty sure the bell housing (attached to the transmission) is properly lined up as both moved freely with just a about 1.5 inches to go. But I can't get the bell housing lined up with the block dowels...just barely off. I'm going to pull it back out tomorrow and realign everything and try again. The hardest part is getting that damn bell housing over the crossmember...the space at the top by the firewall is so tight I have to maneuver it a mm at a time to properly clear it. This would certainly be easier with an extra set of hands.

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Posted: Sat May 26th, 2018 11:15 pm

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Re-installing a manual transmission, I remember the pains. I have two wooden pilot alignment tools in my tool set. One for Ford and the other for GM. Both can be a PIA.

The only advice I can give is perseverance. If you have aligned it correctly and confirmed the pilot bearing you will need to wiggle it till everything aligns.

BTW: My method for removing the the old pilot bearing was to fill it with grease. Then use a wooden dowel the same size as the bearing to insert it and tap it with a hammer. It would come out effortlessly every time.

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Posted: Sun May 27th, 2018 12:04 am

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One other thing I used to do, leave the tranny in gear.
With the trans in gear you can move the tail shaft to align the Clutch.

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squirrelhunter

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Posted: Sun May 27th, 2018 12:16 am

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I knew this topic was gonna get serious when there was no "NSFW" in the title...

Last edited on Sun May 27th, 2018 12:17 am by Undrstm8ed

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Posted: Sun May 27th, 2018 10:15 am

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pretty simple once its up there in place try rotating the tail housing in small circles, down left up right until it slides in.
The Mazda 5 speed is so light I usually just stab these with my arms/knees but if you are having issues try using a transmission jack

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Posted: Sun May 27th, 2018 08:37 pm

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So I pulled everything back out...input shaft is fine, alignment tool is damn near the exact same size...put a single strip of electrical tape on it ensure it was snug. Here's the alignment after I torqued all the pressure plate bolts to spec.

I'm using a transmission jack but once I get the transmission in place to start wiggling and pushing it's in the way. I think my issue is the alignment of the engine to the bell housing. I'm struggling with getting a straight shot at pushing it in there. I'll give it another try tomorrow...I stopped for the day just as the temp reached 100F...it snowed less than a month ago...that's a whole nother issue.

Thanks for the all the tips. I'll eventually get this...and do a happy dance when I do.

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Posted: Sun May 27th, 2018 09:27 pm

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I've heard if you put the tranny in neutral and put the rear yoke in and twist the rear yoke as you are lining it up its suppose to help it slide into place.

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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2018 10:19 am

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I'm telling you right now after installing 30+ M5OD
once you have it all lined up whether you are using a jack or your knees move the tailhousing in small circles while trying to stab...once you hit the correct alignment it will slide in place
Ive even done this three times in ONE DAY!!!!
With transmissions that fight me I will stop, take a break, clean up shop and go back at it

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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2018 11:14 am

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LOL see this post:

https://ford-rangers.com/view_post.php?post_id=12978

And I've only installed 3 or 4 manuals in my life time.

You didn't mention cussing though. Big deal for me since I usually don't swear but transmissions sometimes do it to me.

Or when I put in a melling high flow oil pump just to figure out the stock oil pan is not deep enough to accommodate it.

Anyone want one for a 5.0? Shipping only.

If I lived a few hundred miles closer 1Q I would come over and help.

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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2018 12:32 pm

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I went back at it this morning using the 410Customs method and thought I had it. But it just wouldn't budge that last inch or so. Pulled the transmission back out to make sure everything was aligned. Clutch disc and pressure plate hadn't move...still centered on the pilot bearing. Then, for grins, I got the original pilot bearing to see if it would expose any issues with the input shaft...everything smooth with no visible issues. Went to slide the pilot bearing on the end and this is what I found...

That's the original bearing so it should have slid straight on...barely made it past inner diameter. Unless...it's not the same input shaft. At least that's my theory. Will have to call the shop where we did the remanufacture/rebuild.

Jamman, Would welcome the help. I'd even smoke a brisket and provide beverages of your choice.

The joys of restoring a vehicle....

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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2018 01:33 pm

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Scrambler82
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You are going to need to measure the new Pilot Bearing ID, problem being... the roller bearing are hard to get a fix on !

Thought..., find out the OD of the existing Input Shaft, then beg, borrow, or steal, some Calibrated Gauge Pins that are the correct size and two others one larger and one smaller. Get the measurements from the OD of the Input Shaft, or from the Pilot Bearing Spec Sheet, and fit the pins in the installed Pilot Bearing to determine the correct size. This will give you two things, one is the OD of the Input Shaft and the ID of the Pilot Bearing... and will they fit... !

You may have needed a new input shaft and it was replaced as needed, and the end needs to be sized, or you may have the wrong Pilot Bearing ! (Captain Obvious) !

With the Gauge Pins you can get an idea of where you are, without taking anything apart !

Also, if you get a new Pilot Bearing, take the measurement of the Input Shaft with you and verify the ID of the Pilot Bearing !

Sorry if this appear to be plain-Jane in methodology but it will give you a starting point.

**********************************-------------------------------************************

Another thought, How does the Clutch Alignment Tool fit the Pilot Bearing ?
Is the end of the Alignment Tool damaged at all ?

If there is a tight fit on the Alignment Tool and the Pilot Bearing end fits snugly, you may get some idea of the Pilot Bearing ID ?

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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2018 03:50 pm

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Well might be bad news, that shaft needs to be "ground" and should have been the right diameter for the roller bearing. You can't just polish it up it needs to be ground to the proper diameter all the way back.

It's a good thing it didn't go in or you would have been in trouble shortly down the road.

Those rollers still made by torrington?

& scrambler- pins are awesome I have from .011 minus all the way up to .625 minus and some loose pluses in the sizes I do frequently. There should be a tolerance for the shaft diameter. Everyone should have a 0-1" micrometer in their tool box at least.

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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2018 09:48 pm

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Scrambler82
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JAMMAN wrote:
Well might be bad news, that shaft needs to be "ground" and should have been the right diameter for the roller bearing. You can't just polish it up it needs to be ground to the proper diameter all the way back.

It's a good thing it didn't go in or you would have been in trouble shortly down the road.

Those rollers still made by torrington?

& scrambler- pins are awesome I have from .011 minus all the way up to .625 minus and some loose pluses in the sizes I do frequently. There should be a tolerance for the shaft diameter. Everyone should have a 0-1" micrometer in their tool box at least.
The thing is... DON'T DO IT HALF ASS !
Do it right and you will have years of worry free travel, jam it together and "Wham-Bam" you are in trouble.

Not to change up the Topic but...
OK on the Gauge Pins. Have a full set, sizes I would have to check, but they are plus-minus .001 all the way to 1.000".
I have been a Quality Assurance Engineer for 30 years, did everything from Mechanical Inspection, Electrical Component Inspection up to full Ion Implanters, valued around $2Mil and ended up my last five years of working as the Incoming Inspection Supervisor, also did the Tool Calibration for two companies, that how I got my Pin Set.
Yes on the Mics 0-1" is a good size for a lot of things, if you do engine work, then up to 5" is good, with inside Gauge Sets.

That is also why I asked you about the Battery Cover for my Mitutoyo 8" Digital Calipers, now that is a great tool, especially if you can keep the battery in place.
Jamman, How did we leave that anyway ? (Please answer through Messaging) !

Anyway by getting things mic'ed out ahead of time it will get you to first base in knowing what is wrong, then proceed from there.
After contacting the Mechanic, lets see what he has to say about the new front shaft.
Thanks for listening and Sorry 1qaz for the take over.

Last edited on Tue May 29th, 2018 10:47 am by Scrambler82

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Posted: Mon May 28th, 2018 10:50 pm

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After further inspection and comparison to previous pictures taken when it was apart it appears to be the same input shaft... the wear markings match and I chased my own parts during the rebuild and kept all the original parts. There is a loose needle in the old pilot bearing so my theory (as most are) is incorrect. Just in case, I have ordered a metal pilot bearing alignment kit and a new Ford pilot bearing...each about $10...no harm in having a spare around. The saga continues. Thanks for bearing with me...pun intended.

Scrambler and Jamman -- Thanks for the dialogue...very much appreciated. There's no damage to the alignment tool though it is plastic. It is smaller diameter than the input shaft...the old pilot bearing slips on and off effortlessly. Also, everything on this restoration is too exact factory specs according to the shop manual...every bolt, every torque...every part. Chasing parts is a lot of the effort. I really need to update the build thread. Again, thanks for the guidance and input.

Last edited on Mon May 28th, 2018 11:07 pm by 1qaz

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Posted: Tue May 29th, 2018 10:46 am

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Scrambler82
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All well and good, keep checking !

When you get the new Pilot Bearing, check the smallest ID of the Bearing, the best way to do this is with the Gauge Pins mentioned in the other posts, before install, and get the nose of the Input Shaft measured... with a good quality Micrometer !

You need to make sure before you start, that all things are where they need to be, AND after the Pilot Bearing is installed using a proper tool, remeasure the Pilot Bearings ID after install, again with pins !

Might be easier ways to do this but I usually do it my way, I am not a mechanic, I look at a job/mod and do what needs to be done !

Another thought... how are you doing the Pilot Bearing Install, with a socket for the set tool or do you have a tool made for the Pilot Bearings. Sometimes the Bearing Type Pilot Bearing, will deform if not installed evenly and with a tool that is designed to hold the bearings in place while driving the bearing in place. It always helps to have the right tool, check out if there is a specialty tool for the job.

Sorry for all of the wordy replies, I tend to write a procedure instead of just suggesting things.
Good Luck, Keep posting and PICTURES, yes add more pictures.

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Posted: Tue May 29th, 2018 11:31 am

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Scrambler82 wrote:
Sometimes the Bearing Type Pilot Bearing, will deform if not installed evenly and with a tool that is designed to hold the bearings in place while driving the bearing in place. It always helps to have the right tool, check out if there is a specialty tool for the job.
Yes, I see this as entirely possible. Here's why:

I recently had the transmission out of my 2.3 Ranger beater for another issue. While I was there, I installed a new slave cylinder, clutch, pressure plate and pilot bearing. Here's where it gets good. At some point in its former life, some Neanderthal had reinstalled the trans without any needles in the pilot bearing case! So the trans input shaft was bearing directly on the lip of the then-empty bearing shell. Surprisingly enough, the shaft was still usable and is working fine with a new needle pilot bearing in place. I have no idea how long it was like that but I have owned the truck for over 2 years so it was at least that long.

What's the point? Just this. The clearance between the bearing case lip and the input shaft is so small that it can function more or less as a bearing, as least in the short term. If that lip is driven in by the wrong tool, it could easily deform and make the hole too small for the pilot shaft.

I'd measure shaft and bearing to make sure this hasn't happened.

Last edited on Tue May 29th, 2018 05:23 pm by V8 Level II

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