Misfire on 2.5 4cyl - 4 Cylinder Gasoline - Ranger Engine Tech

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sheltonfilms wrote: Since I'm pulling away from the IAC now, probably need to move this to the 4 cylinder section. Can the mods do this and also change title to Misfire on 2.5L?
Done.

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Posted: Wed Jan 17th, 2018 01:46 pm

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Thank you.

Last edited on Wed Jan 17th, 2018 01:46 pm by sheltonfilms

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Posted: Thu Jan 18th, 2018 12:08 am

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Information update.

The cold has made the issue a little worse, but luckily I got some good data to go off of.

When the truck started misfiring STFT went up to +15. Rev the engine a couple of times and it clears up. Rev it some more and it can come back. As the RPMs are going up it can still misfire but if you blip it right it goes away.

This is starting to sound like an injector. I wished I had an Oscope so I could see the voltage waveform. I guess I'll try to do a cylinder 1 to 4 swap this weekend.

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Posted: Thu Jan 18th, 2018 12:11 am

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No vacuum/intake leaks, right?

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Posted: Thu Jan 18th, 2018 12:35 am

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sheltonfilms
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MaDMaXX wrote: No vacuum/intake leaks, right?
All vacuum lines have been checked, especially the ones that connect near the #1 cylinder. Also the throttle body and upper intake plenum gaskets were replaced with the spark plug changes.
If there is a leak it would be around the lower intake plenum, but I would think this could be ruled out due to the good vacuum gauge readings. If it was a vacuum leak I would expect some where around 5-10 inches of mg on the gauge.

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Posted: Thu Jan 18th, 2018 12:36 am

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Got it, just checking.

Last time you ran any high % PEA content injector cleaner through it?

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Posted: Thu Jan 18th, 2018 12:56 am

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sheltonfilms
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Only think I have ran in this truck is marvel mystery oil every once on a while (maybe once every two years).

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Posted: Thu Jan 18th, 2018 01:00 am

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Hmm, i don't think that has any PEA in at all, never mind a high concentration.

Alright, well i smoothed out my similar sounding issue by cleaning my injectors this way.

PEA works by sitting on the injectors with the engine off, so it 'soaks', ie. use it when you're not going on a long run.

Techron super concentrate is a good one, autozone has it.
Redline S1 contains a similarly high amount of PEA.

I don't recall the other, but both of those are easy to acquire.
I ran a few ounces over the recommended amount, by the end of the tank, it was running more smoothly.

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Posted: Mon Jan 22nd, 2018 05:48 pm

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Hi Anthony, following up on the earlier inquiry.......

I read your problem statement and subsequent posts and replies that were relevant and had correct info. I'll get back to you shortly; along with the emission system in question I'm thinking about suggesting the possibility of invoking a feature in Torque Pro (it's prolly in in FORScan too).

****If you have Torque Pro on your phone or a tablet, have you added all of the available extended PID's to it?

Last edited on Mon Jan 22nd, 2018 05:51 pm by CBB9M

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Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2018 01:14 am

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Haven't tried it with the extended pids. I would really like to try to get a real-time individual cylinder misfire counter going.

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Posted: Wed Jan 24th, 2018 11:30 am

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Remember what I said about Torque, if needed I can look today or on Friday.

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Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2018 03:11 pm

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Bringing this issue back. Been dealing with it off and on. Not so much an issue in the summer but with the cold coming back it's more prevalent.

I think it's a sticking exhaust valve. I capped off all the vacuum lines and tested for leaks, nothing. Injectors seem fine (haven't done a flow test yet) and fuel pressure is perfect. Talked to a guy about the dual spark ignition and he said the redundant makes it rare for an ignition based misfire. Have to have 2 faults for failure.

The only test that I haven't performed is a running compression test, even though static looked fine.

I totally forgot about the paper over the tail pipe method and so today when it was running rough I put a receipt back there with my hand keeping it flat and sure enough every couple of seconds it would try to suck the receipt into the exhaust. This leads me to believe it's a sticking valve.

I guess I'm going to be pulling the valve cover and check it out. Hopefully I don't have to pull the head.

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Posted: Thu Dec 20th, 2018 10:31 pm

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Flat spot on the cam? Dirty mass airflow sensor?

I've HEARD a little tranny fluid in you oil can free up stuck stuff but I've never needed to try it.

Techron is great in the fuel system, I've used it and it really works well. My truck had an ever so slight surge Idle I could only hear in the drive thru with walls on both sides of the truck. Put techron in it and the engine smoothed out. It was kinda weird cause it had always had great performance and acceleration but now it was really smooth at idle too.

Last edited on Thu Dec 20th, 2018 10:33 pm by Eddie Money

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Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2018 01:03 pm

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Eddie Money wrote:
Flat spot on the cam? Dirty mass airflow sensor?

I've HEARD a little tranny fluid in you oil can free up stuck stuff but I've never needed to try it.

Techron is great in the fuel system, I've used it and it really

works well. My truck had an ever so slight surge Idle I could only hear in the drive thru with walls on both sides of the truck. Put techron in it and the engine smoothed out. It was kinda weird cause it had always had great performance and acceleration but now it was really smooth at idle too.
The issue is intermittent and doesn't show up on a cranking compression test, so to me this would eliminate a flat spot on the cam.

Fuel trims look pretty darn good through out the entire power band (there are occasions where the STFT go up to 15-18 at a stop light and go back to normal), plus it seems to be only cylinder 2 that is misfiring as I did a cylinder contribution/drop test. I pulled injector connectors instead of spark plugs because of the dual spark system and cylinder 2 was the only one that didn't make a difference. Cylinder 1 is fired right after cylinder 2 so I think the cylinder 2 misfire is causing cylinder 1 to pop up every now and then. Or maybe it's both Cylinder 1 and 2 sticking a different times and sometimes it's both (why I stall out on occasion due to only 2 cylinders firing).

Some MMO in the crankcase months ago seemed to help but that could have been a placebo effect. .

I'm thinking at the end of the day the valve cover is definitely going to have to come off. I may try the penetrating fluid, tap valve stem top method. Need to also inspect springs and possibly remove and clean the hydraulic lash adjusters (they have been ticking for years). I've bought 5 gallons of PSC 1000 (naptha) for my parts washer so I think that would be a good solvent for those.

A couple of tests I may do before the valve cover pull is an injector flow test just to eliminate those (got an injector pulser off Amazon for $30) and also try to do a running compression test.

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Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2018 02:23 pm

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In case you go the penetrating fluid route, the current best are Seafoam Deep Creep, and PB Blaster's penetrating fluid. Everything else, including my beloved Kroil, is ass :(

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Posted: Fri Dec 21st, 2018 09:36 pm

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I feel like I'm the crazy coil guy cause I usually suspect the coil pack right off the bat. I'll explain why.

I drive a 99 F150 V8. Ive had so many issues with it this year. Its had a rough idle, sounded like a dead hole. Replaced a few coils, ran fine. Using pasting gear, sucked the crumbling intake gasket and began over heating. Replaced gasket and ran rough again. Mechanic cleaned mass air flow sensor and ran ok for a few miles. Lol. Changed a couple coils, ran fine again.

If it runs ok till it warms up I'm going coil all the way. I am not a mechanic, I'm just going off my experiences.

You've checked the ignition pretty thoroughly, you've ruled out vacuum leaks. How about fuel filter? Sometimes there is more than one and that's the one that's bad cause no one knew it was there. Bad fuel pump? Could be worn out or have a bad wire or lose connection that gets fussy when it gets jostled just right?

I'm mostly guessing, thinking of all the things I've had and heard that might cause your issue.

Have you tried a $20 bottle of techron? If it's so subtle and intermittent it could just be an dirty fuel line or injector and techron would fix that.

Last edited on Fri Dec 21st, 2018 09:38 pm by Eddie Money

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Posted: Tue Jan 1st, 2019 03:47 pm

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Eddie Money wrote:
I feel like I'm the crazy coil guy cause I usually suspect the coil pack right off the bat. I'll explain why.

I drive a 99 F150 V8. Ive had so many issues with it this year. Its had a rough idle, sounded like a dead hole. Replaced a few coils, ran fine. Using pasting gear, sucked the crumbling intake gasket and began over heating. Replaced gasket and ran rough again. Mechanic cleaned mass air flow sensor and ran ok for a few miles. Lol. Changed a couple coils, ran fine again.

If it runs ok till it warms up I'm going coil all the way. I am not a mechanic, I'm just going off my experiences.

You've checked the ignition pretty thoroughly, you've ruled out vacuum leaks. How about fuel filter? Sometimes there is more than one and that's the one that's bad cause no one knew it was there. Bad fuel pump? Could be worn out or have a bad wire or lose connection that gets fussy when it gets jostled just right?

I'm mostly guessing, thinking of all the things I've had and heard that might cause your issue.

Have you tried a $20 bottle of techron? If it's so subtle and intermittent it could just be an dirty fuel line or injector and techron would fix that.
Fuel filter was replaced a few weeks ago along with fuel pressure checks at idle and at 2500 rpms. Not drop in pressure so flow to the rail seems fine. I've already put some techron in the tank before.

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Posted: Wed Jan 2nd, 2019 09:38 pm

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Man I'm stumped. Lol. I could keep making guesses....critters chewing off wire insulation causing crossfire? Wires rubbing insulation off and contacting with engine? Water getting in the fuel....this is a tough one!!! With everything you've already done hopefully one of the mechanic guys can figure it out. Happy new year!!!

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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2019 08:16 pm

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Ok so I did a few things today:

Cleaned the throttle body. I did this previously with it in the vehicle so I took it completely out and cleaned it again. Wasn't much carbon.
Took coil packs off and clean the "grounding plate". Very corroded but I don't believe this really does anything but figured what the hell.
Remove MAF sensor just to look at it and it is spotless.
Tested fuel injectors using an injector timer and fuel pressure gauge (injector timer does 100 pulses at 3.5ms pulsewidths). Was able to get to injector 1,2, and 4 connectors and all 3 of those dropped from 63 psi to 52 psi when pulsed using the timer. So they all have the same flow rate.

As it stands right now I'm thinking it's one of a few things:

Something sticking in the head (like a valve).
Possible a coil pack cross firing?
Something killing the ignition or fuel timing. Drop in crank or cam sensor.

I'm starting to pull away from the valve train just because it will flat out stall after a high rev or after wide open throttle and let off. I feel if a valve was sticking it would still run off losing a cylinder. To me the stalling would be more of something that affects all cylinders.

Would this be a crankshaft sensor issue? I know these use a 2 wire sensor so the signal frequency and the voltage amplitude increases with speed. I'm wondering if it is dropping out or shorting out just a hair? Looks like the sensor is behind the water pump inlet tube and you have to remove it to get to the sensor.

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Posted: Sat Oct 12th, 2019 11:32 am

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Ok time to get dirty on this problem. I'm pulling the head today. I'm about 90% sure it's a worn/recessed valve seat issue. I found about 2 other old posts with guys having the same issue. Main issue is the flat out stall after a rev.

Theory and root cause analysis:

Truck misfires or stalls due to loss of compression on 1 or more cylinders.
Why? Exhaust valves aren't seating all the way.
Why? Hydraulic lash adjusters have pumped up during high revs.
Why? Valve spring force is less allowing HLA to pump up higher than normal.
Why? Valve height is taller allowing for less valve spring force.
WHy? Valve seats are recessed causing taller valve height.
Why? Valve seat material has worn away from high millage.

I've justified the theory by paying for a 1 month subscription to IATN to see what actual technicians have seen. There are many that had the same exact symptoms and all had recessed valve seats. Good thing about IATN is it filters out all the armchair quarterback mechanic responses. Worth the $20 bucks to see the knowledge base.

It's a very hard diagnosis and the only way I can see diagnosing it is to rev the crap out of the truck and have it die and immediately do a compression test. The dollar bill over the exhaust also is a big indicator. If you had access to scope and an amp clamp you would probably see the ignition wave form show a low compression situation on the rev. Exhaust pressure transducer readings I would think would also show this.

This is exactly like the Vulcan 3.0 issue that ford had a tsb for but the 3.0 is a pushrod engine and doesn't have the same HLA setup like the LIMA. So those usually have constant low compression.

I also don't believe there was a TSB for this since it mostly occurs on really high millage vehicles.

So hopefully tonight or tomorrow I can confirm my theory/hypothesis.

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Posted: Sun Oct 13th, 2019 12:35 am

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Got the head off and I was correct. Cylinder 1 was recessed pretty bad. Cylinder 2 just a tad. 3 and 4 are flush with the valve seat deck. I'm posting cylinder 1 and cylinder 4 for comparison. The burn residue looked the same on 2-4 and cylinder 1 looked clean. Only major issue I see with this head is possible crack between valves as you can see. We'll see what the machine shop says on Monday. Hopefully they can fix as they are very reputable and I don't want to take a chance on a reman.

Cylinder 1:

Cylinder 4:

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Posted: Sun Oct 13th, 2019 10:11 am

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Nicely done
I was leaning towards an injector after reading all of this

Watching along to see if the valves are the issue
I do not do alot with the 4 cylinders in fact I have only ever worked on one in the last 25 years.

keep up the good work, lets see what the machine shop says

If you put it back together just for giggles swap the injector locations

Last edited on Sun Oct 13th, 2019 10:11 am by 410customs

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410customs wrote:
Nicely done
I was leaning towards an injector after reading all of this

Watching along to see if the valves are the issue
I do not do alot with the 4 cylinders in fact I have only ever worked on one in the last 25 years.

keep up the good work, lets see what the machine shop says

If you put it back together just for giggles swap the injector locations
I was actually thinking of getting a fuel line connector from the junkyard and setup an off vehicle injector cleaner setup. Already got the injector pulser tool.

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Posted: Sun Oct 13th, 2019 10:52 am

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I will have a complete injector tester as soon as I can get out in the shed at work. They shelved one. It has 10 graduates I can flow test.

Hey I have a fuel rail and injectors off a 2.5 I don't need. If you need them just pay shipping I'll send them your way.

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Posted: Fri Oct 18th, 2019 09:58 pm

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JAMMAN wrote:
I will have a complete injector tester as soon as I can get out in the shed at work. They shelved one. It has 10 graduates I can flow test.

Hey I have a fuel rail and injectors off a 2.5 I don't need. If you need them just pay shipping I'll send them your way.
Thanks for the offer but I think I'm good at the moment. I think I'm going to go straight into putting it back together.

An update since my last post:

I got it to a machine shop and they magnafluxed it and found 3 of the 4 chambers had cracks. Time to get a reman.

Found one at Allied Motor Parts somewhere near Atlanta. Ordered and had it the next day (today). $330 shipped with camshaft, lash adjusters, and roller followers. $50 core with prepaid label. Not too bad considering machine shop was going to charge about $250.

So far I just opened the box to take a quick look and I was wrong about the factory valve head height (if they machined this correctly). The valve heads are 0.050" proud of the seats. So this makes the recession on mine as follows:
Cyl 1: 0.080"
Cyl 2: 0.070"
Cyl 3: 0.050"
Cyl 4: 0.050"

Someone on another post said the lash adjusters only had about a 0.60" stroke so cylinder 1 and 2 should have had 0 lash as they bottomed out the HLA travel.

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