Misfire on 2.5 4cyl - 4 Cylinder Gasoline - Ranger Engine Tech

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sheltonfilms
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Well I thought this was going to be a smooth process, but I thought wrong.

Cleaned up the block and ran a tap through the holes to clean them out. Put the gasket on, head on, torqued to 51 ft lbs and then re-torqued.

Now time for the 90 degree additional turn. Picked up a Torque angle gauge for perfection.

Got to about 80-85 degrees on the first bolt and. POP! Oh no. Pulled the bolt out and it was fine. Looked down and IT PULLED THE THREADS OUT OF THE ENGINE BLOCK!

Picked up a helicoil kit and fixed it.

Bolt torqued fine, until the 5th bolt and the same thing happened.

Did I weaken the threads with the tap? Maybe my wrench is off?

The first hole did look like the tap was off and cut into the main threads and took so material out but the other ones looked fine under a quick inspection.

I know I'll have to coil the 5th bolt but do I go ahead and do all?

Simple job is starting to look like a nightmare.

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Posted: Mon Oct 21st, 2019 12:27 pm

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chris

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51 ftlbs +90 degrees sounds a hell of a lot - are you sure the torque isn't 21 ftlbs + 90?

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Posted: Mon Oct 21st, 2019 01:02 pm

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sheltonfilms
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Chris wrote:
51 ftlbs +90 degrees sounds a hell of a lot - are you sure the torque isn't 21 ftlbs + 90?
It's definitely 51 ft lbs, also lists as 70 Newton meters, which is 51 for lbs.

in Chilton, Alldata, and Factory service manual

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Posted: Mon Oct 21st, 2019 07:21 pm

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Tsquare
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New head bolts or reused old ones?

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Posted: Mon Oct 21st, 2019 07:34 pm

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sheltonfilms
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Tsquare wrote:
New head bolts or reused old ones?
New Felpro TTY bolts.

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Posted: Tue Oct 22nd, 2019 07:06 am

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JAMMAN

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I suspect too heavy heat treat on the bolts. If 2 did it the threads are stretched on all, I would take it off, get a new gasket, get new bolts from another vendor and coil all the holes.

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Posted: Tue Oct 22nd, 2019 08:13 am

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sheltonfilms
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JAMMAN wrote:
I suspect too heavy heat treat on the bolts. If 2 did it the threads are stretched on all, I would take it off, get a new gasket, get new bolts from another vendor and coil all the holes.
I'm kinda torn on that thought. I would think the bolt would break.

only issue I have with coiling all holes is just increasing my chances of something going wrong (Drill wrong angle, break tap). Since cast iron is so hard and brittle I wouldn't think they would have â€œweakenedâ€ threads like aluminum or steel would.

I think right My plan is to pull it off, coil the one, and throughly inspect the others. I'm thinking my tapping may have been off Could be the cause. Or the torque wrench, which I'm gonna get a new digital one I think.

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Posted: Thu Oct 24th, 2019 12:21 pm

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Dang that SUCKS!! I hate doing head gaskets I would rather drop in a new/used engine 90% of the time.

Battle on.....

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Posted: Sun Oct 27th, 2019 08:40 pm

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sheltonfilms
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Well I made some progress today. I picked up a harden steel drill guide made by Big Gator Tools to drill the next helicoil straight (last one was off a hair). Also picked up an Irwin tap socket since it was in close quarters and doesn't allow my Greenfield tap handle to work. Also picked up one of the new Quinn digital 1/2â€ torque wrenches from Harbor Freight. Best part is it measures angles.

For the other 5 untested bolt holes, I decided to test them out. I kept the head on and torqued all 5 to spec, loosening after each torque to prevent warpage. All held.

Took and old POS aluminum throttle body spacer and drilled and tapped a hole to bolt the drill guide to it to make it more stable. Drilled the hole no problem. I then took the throttle body spacer and tapped it with the helicoil tap on the bench. This made a guide to allow the tap to be started straight in the engine. Put it on the engine and it worked like a charm.

I went ahead and picked up a new gasket and new bolts just to be safe. I didn't see any stretch to them like the factory ones but didn't want to take any chances.

Moment of truth..........torqued all 10 and they all are holding. Wooooo. Nerve racking part over. Btw peak torque for all bolts was 100-110ft lbs in case anyone was wondering.

Threads that popped out of bolt #5

Helicoil installed

Drill guide mounted to throttle spacer plate

Pre tapped hole to keep alignment.

Last edited on Sun Oct 27th, 2019 10:19 pm by sheltonfilms

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Posted: Mon Oct 28th, 2019 03:13 pm

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mhoward
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Nice work Anthony! The idea of using the throttle spacer as an alignment guide is pure genius!

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Posted: Tue Oct 29th, 2019 07:02 pm

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sheltonfilms
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mhoward wrote:
Nice work Anthony! The idea of using the throttle spacer as an alignment guide is pure genius!
Probably the most good it's ever done in its life.

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Posted: Wed Oct 30th, 2019 09:28 am

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well done
Im a tool whore so to hear about whats available to solve problems has me drool drool

110 ft lbs!!! That 90 degree turn sure adds alot!
Harbor freight rules man!

fingers crossed for the 4 banger

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Posted: Wed Oct 30th, 2019 11:10 am

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410customs wrote:
well done
Im a tool whore so to hear about whats available to solve problems has me drool drool

110 ft lbs!!! That 90 degree turn sure adds alot!
Harbor freight rules man!

fingers crossed for the 4 banger
It probably hit 100 ft lbs in the first 10-15 degrees I bet. Cast iron head and cast iron block don't give much cushion so that torque curve is probably pretty steep once the bolt head seats. The rest was the bolt stretching because it felt pretty constant along the sweep like it was yielding.

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Posted: Wed Oct 30th, 2019 11:53 am

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That's what it should feel like when you do TTY bolts on the heads....good news! Helicoils are a life saver

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Posted: Thu Oct 31st, 2019 04:53 pm

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410customs wrote:
That's what it should feel like when you do TTY bolts on the heads....good news! Helicoils are a life saver
It was my first time using one in such a high torque application. Actually had me worried because most videos or posts I see say Time Serts are better. So I decided to dig into this.

What I found is the first few videos on YT are from a guy saying time serts are better. Well he sells time serts and I'm sure the profit margin is higher on those.

Helicoils are listed in NASA technical documentation, Time serts are not.

I've found that people say that the helicoil being a wound wire is a con, but it turns out it isn't as it's ability to "breathe" and move helps it hold more force. This movement allows for inconsistencies in cut threads. Also found out that a bolt in a solid insert or sold hole has 75% of the force on the first 2 threads, but if using a helicoil 80% of the force is spread across the first 4 threads.

Also found a machinists that did torque and pull out force testing of different ones, and the helicoil performed well, even better than the time sert. Check it out when you guys have time. Very interesting.

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Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2019 11:16 am

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heck yes! knowledge is power

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Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2019 09:25 pm

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The Time Sert works better for replacing spark plug threads in the Triton 5.4 than a Helicoil. For most applications the Helicoil works great. Add heat and pressure then the Time Sert is what you want to use.

I have a buddy with a Lightening that blew a few plugs. The Helicoil repairs ended up blowing again. The Time Sert fixed the problem. He ended up pulling the heads, replacing one, and Time Serted every plug. BTW: this is not a standard Lightening as it is pushing just over 500 HP.

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Posted: Sat Nov 2nd, 2019 09:40 am

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They both have their usages. I have never heard the term "timesert" I know them as "Keenserts". The biggest place helicoils are a no nos in applications where the hole is WAY worn, outside the drill size for the helicoil. There is another kind of insert like a keensert that has no tines (maybe it is supposed to be a "tinesert"?) that some german manufacturers use to make threads stronger in aluminum. No tines means they can effectively be removed and replaced.

The advantages of Keenserts and the german style is they use standard tap sizes for the insert. One might think this isn't a big deal but when you only have one helicoil tap and some butt plug has borrowed it thinking it was a regular tap dulling the living crap out of it without your knowledge... then you have a project that has to go out...

A dull helicoil tap can produce a situation where the helicoil can be inserted but the end result thread is too small and the bolt gets bound up.

Been a machinist since early 80's I've endured all of this multiple times.

Because helicoil taps are a special grind they are not produced in the masses that regular taps are. They are often weaker and harder to obtain.

So both have their uses. A helicoil tapped wrong or inserted wrong or if the coil is too long or too short for the hole can be a big problem. Keenserts are no brainers but there is often not enough room to drill the larger hole required for them.

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Posted: Tue Nov 12th, 2019 06:08 pm

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sheltonfilms
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JAMMAN wrote:
They both have their usages. I have never heard the term "timesert" I know them as "Keenserts". The biggest place helicoils are a no nos in applications where the hole is WAY worn, outside the drill size for the helicoil. There is another kind of insert like a keensert that has no tines (maybe it is supposed to be a "tinesert"?) that some german manufacturers use to make threads stronger in aluminum. No tines means they can effectively be removed and replaced.

The advantages of Keenserts and the german style is they use standard tap sizes for the insert. One might think this isn't a big deal but when you only have one helicoil tap and some butt plug has borrowed it thinking it was a regular tap dulling the living crap out of it without your knowledge... then you have a project that has to go out...

A dull helicoil tap can produce a situation where the helicoil can be inserted but the end result thread is too small and the bolt gets bound up.

Been a machinist since early 80's I've endured all of this multiple times.

Because helicoil taps are a special grind they are not produced in the masses that regular taps are. They are often weaker and harder to obtain.

So both have their uses. A helicoil tapped wrong or inserted wrong or if the coil is too long or too short for the hole can be a big problem. Keenserts are no brainers but there is often not enough room to drill the larger hole required for them.
Good info.

Update on progress:
Well the wife works 3 nights a week and that leaves me with 4 kids to watch after (1, 4,6, and 8). So this has pushed me back a little on putting it back together.

I got the timing belt back on this weekened. I remember timing it being a pain but this time I think i found the trick. When checking the indicators I found it easier to line up the oil and cam sprocket first and seeing how the crankshaft sprocket sits. If you try to line the crank one up and check the other two it always seems to be off. One way is just more sensitive than the other. Hope this makes sense.

With a "new" head you have to install the camshaft seal. Started out being a pain because you tap one side in and the other side wants to pop out. Look around for something that had a bore similar to the camshaft and voila! That good old trust throttle body spacer was close enough to work. Just put a piece of steel bar with a hole in the middle across it and used the camshaft sprocket bolt to pull it in. Seated the seal perfectly.

Intake, exhaust, and misc will hopefully be done this weekend.

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Posted: Sun Nov 24th, 2019 06:18 pm

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Success!

Finally got the last bit done today and started it up. Started up with a high rev of about 3k rpms for about 10 seconds and then came down. During this time I had an awful sound from the valve train waiting for the lifters to pump up. I covered the new head with assembly lube and poured a quart on it before putting the valve cover on so I knew I covered that.

Ran for about 10 minutes to get it up to temp to fill the cooling system. Since the coolant looked awful I'm running a bottle of Thermocure in it and will swap it out in a week before we see freezing temps. During this time it still had knock/tick to it.

Shut it down and went to lunch with the family. Got back and decided to pull it out for a ride. Knock noise was gone and she drove so smoothe. Kinda weird pulling up to red lights without having to hold the brake and give it some gas.

I also got a little bit of pickup back. I assume I will recover some fuel economy from this.

So overall a success. I think we should re-title this to â€œ Misfire Stalling after High Revs, Runs fine above idle (Solved!)â€

I will provide a total cost breakdown later.

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Posted: Sun Nov 24th, 2019 07:42 pm

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mhoward
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Glad you got this done, Anthony! Great job! :)

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Posted: Sun Nov 24th, 2019 11:26 pm

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mhoward wrote:
Glad you got this done, Anthony! Great job! :)
Me too. I thought I was going to have to finally break down and pay someone to do something for me.

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Posted: Tue Nov 26th, 2019 08:34 am

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JAMMAN

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sheltonfilms wrote:
mhoward wrote:

Glad you got this done, Anthony! Great job! :)
Me too. I thought I was going to have to finally break down and pay someone to do something for me.

NOOOOO! Only you can trust you when working on the truck :) I'll pay for having tires mounted that's about all. Glad to hear things are looking good.

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Posted: Tue Nov 26th, 2019 10:24 am

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mhoward
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JAMMAN wrote:
sheltonfilms wrote:

mhoward wrote:

Glad you got this done, Anthony! Great job! :)
Me too. I thought I was going to have to finally break down and pay someone to do something for me.

NOOOOO! Only you can trust you when working on the truck :) I'll pay for having tires mounted that's about all. Glad to hear things are looking good.
You PAY to have tires mounted? I just dismounted 9 tires and mounted new ones on the wheels in the last 10 days. Does my back hurt? You bet! But shops around here want $20 a piece to break a tire down and mount a new one... even if you BUY the tires from them. Sorry, but they can go fly a kite (that's the NICE way to say what I think)!

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Posted: Wed Nov 27th, 2019 04:24 pm

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Well I do pay for mounting and balancing of tires and alignments.

I did an alignment before and it was hell getting it just right. For $65, I'll just pay someone.

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