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12 volts sucks       #: 1969
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 Posted: Sat Feb 22nd, 2020 01:29 pm
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JAMMAN

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So who decided the voltage for cars? If starters were like 60V you could run a MUCH smaller wire, if lights and accessories were higher voltage you could do SO MUCH MORE with them and wiring would be simple because you wouldn't need a 10 gauge cable going to anything that pulled electricity.

Do any of you own a heating pad? Look at the puny little wires running from the outlet to the pad. They are only as big as they are because it is a "common" size they really do not need to be that big at 110 and minimal amperage. And heated seats would only cost 10 bucks LOL

12V is why we struggle with wire sizes to heated seats, window motors, winches, trailer brakes and especially audio accessories.

END OF RANT lol



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 Posted: Sat Feb 22nd, 2020 06:41 pm
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Vehicles used to have 6 volt systems pre 1955. In 1955 vehicles were changed over to 12 volt systems do to higher horsepower & engine compression ratio's. 

https://www.fillingstation.com/articles/6volt.htm



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 Posted: Sun Feb 23rd, 2020 09:20 am
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410customs

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My house is a 48 volt system if that helps you to calm down? lol Some of these newer off grid dudes are even going with 60V!



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 Posted: Mon Feb 24th, 2020 01:22 am
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Many of if not most of your Military vehicles are 24 volt, 24 volts also makes a kickass winch setup too.. fast as fack!



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 Posted: Mon Feb 24th, 2020 05:02 am
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I guess it was practicality of producing the battery, cells are 2v each so total voltage depends directly on the number of cells.

Originally, when cars were crank started you only needed power to drive the ignition so 6v was enough.

Yes, higher voltages means lighter wires can be used but then you have to carry more batteries - look at the electric and hybrid cars these days, huge battery trays and up to 120v.

12v is all you need until you get into the big diesels, most of which run 24v and have two massive 12v batteries.

You could up your truck to 24v and fit commercial 24v lorry parts, if you can find them to fit... but even lorries run some systems at 12v, like radios etc. Most electronics run at 12v and 5v.

Or if you are not worried about efficiency, then get an inverter and run some systems at 110v ac!



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 Posted: Mon Feb 24th, 2020 06:59 am
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Twas more rhetorical than wishful, these things we cannot easily change we just have to accept.

Like the internal combustion engine. That is one of those things that we continually improved but was it a good idea. Large pieces of metal changing direction 100% hundreds of times a second.  ?  Where is the efficiency? It's like "hey, let's come up with a design that laughs in the face of physics then over the next 100 years sell it to everyone"

We literally took a piston that was meant to be pushed by steam back and forth slowly and propelled it by an explosion.

And NOBODY has stepped up and came up with anything better for on the ground vehicles. When you have to go REALLY FAST and have enough power to propel hundreds of people through the sky what do you do it with? AN ENGINE THAT ROTATES WITHOUT RECIPROCATING PARTS.

I am just venting, I know the "why" things are as they are, oil production, money, government it all ties in. end of todays rant, spent too much time on it LOL should have been finishing the contest voting thread.



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 Posted: Mon Feb 24th, 2020 09:04 am
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Yes buy now you have let out the steam and vented!  So when you go back to the contest voting thread you can do it with a clear head :)
We are here to listen!



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 Posted: Mon Feb 24th, 2020 12:07 pm
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What about 16 volts, usable but odd !

Does 4 volts make a difference for 12 volt systems ?

LoL !



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 Posted: Mon Feb 24th, 2020 08:11 pm
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Always thought that 12V was just an oddball number.  Why not 10? or 50? Nice round numbers.  But then, look at most of the imperial system. Sixteenths of an inch, ounces, pounds, miles... stupid stuff.  But then, there's the clock...   :fp



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 Posted: Thu Feb 27th, 2020 09:09 am
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tell me about it 
I design elevators all over the world
There is soft metric (like 163mm), hard metric (would be rounded to 165mm) imperial like 1-1/16" and then some places/clients do not work in anything under 1/4" so everything gets rounded.....its a real PITA
Hard metric should have been the way the world works!!! 
It makes the most sense and is easiest to work with.......no fractions to deal with and everything can fit inside of everything else without having to round numbers!!


this is just the math we are talking about then you have elevator codes to deal with and the different municipalities that interpret those codes....the great state of CA has its own elevator code (of course). Anyplace that was colonized by the British follows the EN81 elevator code but then they have been adopting western ideas into their code for quite a few years which all comes down to the guy who is reading the code and his interpretation.....basically your standard passenger elevator varies a huge amount depending on who what when and why its being installed. Asians do not mind cramming into each other to fit more people into a car, Americans would not hear of touching shoulders for the most part so car loads vary widely....there is alot to know! I call it job security, this is why the world needs "consultants" we do not sell products or ideas we sell information and knowledge. I just wish somebody would have told me I could make $18 million a year playing left field for some baseball team...life would have been much more simple :) Catch the ball, run back to dug out...collect paycheck.



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 Posted: Thu Feb 27th, 2020 09:31 am
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Yeah, that 18 million...  I'm not into any sports and I have always wondered why our society places these over-paid, arrogant people on such a high pedestal.  I've always believed that sports stars as well as Hollyweird stars are grossly over-compensated for what you get from them.  Maybe it's just sour grapes with me, since I am neither of those and don't make a huge salary... who knows.  You take our military, EMS or LE of any kind, risking everything and putting their life on the line as their daily grind and get paid peanuts for it, while the glamour crowd rakes in the big bucks.  Uh oh, got on my soap box there for a minute.  Sorry...



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 Posted: Thu Feb 27th, 2020 11:51 am
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mhoward wrote:
Yeah, that 18 million...  I'm not into any sports and I have always wondered why our society places these over-paid, arrogant people on such a high pedestal.  I've always believed that sports stars as well as Hollyweird stars are grossly over-compensated for what you get from them.  Maybe it's just sour grapes with me, since I am neither of those and don't make a huge salary... who knows.  You take our military, EMS or LE of any kind, risking everything and putting their life on the line as their daily grind and get paid peanuts for it, while the glamour crowd rakes in the big bucks.  Uh oh, got on my soap box there for a minute.  Sorry...
True enough !

Me too on the pay checks and the pedestals ! Although I do wish all of the Sport and Movie Stars that promised to leave the country when Trump was elected... WOULD HAVE !  I guess what they have to say doesn't really mean anything !

As far as how much they get paid... they get what people are will to pay, I haven't gone to a game at a stadium or a movie at one of these over grown theaters in a long time, so I am not paying what they are asking.  In a way anyone that does as I am doing is "Just say NO" !

How this relates to 12 volt systems in a vehicle is beyond me but so be it.

OK back to 12 volts... my only problem with a 12 volt system is the amperage required at this voltage to run things, i.e. off road lighting, although LED help here, a good Audio amp, 4 gauge wire required... give me a break.   24 volts of course would cut things in half but why not 48 or 96 volts... wonder what the batteries would be like ?

Ltr



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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2020 08:11 pm
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mhoward wrote:
Always thought that 12V was just an oddball number.  Why not 10? or 50? Nice round numbers.  But then, look at most of the imperial system. Sixteenths of an inch, ounces, pounds, miles... stupid stuff.  But then, there's the clock...   :fp
It's physics of the lead acid cell. Lead plates suspended in sulfuric acid yield 2.1 volts per cell. It can deviate + or - by 0.1 volts. Three cells 6 volts and 6 cells is 12 volts. 

What gets strange 13 volts is used to charge a 12 volt battery. If you really want to go to the "stupid stuff" side what about Allen head bolts? or Torx? or even Bristol?



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 Posted: Fri Feb 28th, 2020 08:23 pm
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Tsquare wrote:

 If you really want to go to the "stupid stuff" side what about Allen head bolts? or Torx? or even Bristol?

All three of those are just a huge PITA.  Allen is sometimes necessary in a tight spot where a regular bolt head may not work.  Torx and Bristol really make no sense.  Luckily, I've never run into Bristol in real life!



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I like Allen Head bolts, Machine Screws !

I replaced all of the visable bolts on my first Harley with Allen Heads, looked cool, at least I thought so !

Torx bolts ya I agree, they just plain s___ !



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 Posted: Sat Feb 29th, 2020 04:13 am
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Oh come on, a few metres (feet?) of 4awg wire is a LOT lighter and cheaper than 3 extra 12v batteries!



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 Posted: Sat Feb 29th, 2020 08:06 am
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Chris wrote:
Oh come on, a few metres (feet?) of 4awg wire is a LOT lighter and cheaper than 3 extra 12v batteries!
Dude's got a point there...



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 Posted: Sat Feb 29th, 2020 08:42 am
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That's why we keep him around.



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 Posted: Sat Feb 29th, 2020 09:47 am
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Peaked my interest... !
From readings on the Web, in the mid 90's there was a major effort to upgrade automotive electrical systems to a Max of 50 volt.
Most automobile manufacturers finally coming to the agreement that 36 volts would be the best battery voltage and a 40 volt charging system would work the best.
Then the Dual-Voltage System 42V/14V concept  was introduced and although it appear a Lead-Acid Battery was still the accepted battery for a dual voltage application it was getting old.

With all of the information out there, other than a Max of 50 volt to prevent shock hazzard, there is no final decision that says this is the voltage to use.
All the new electronics through a Monkey Wrench in the works, and electric vehicle requirements changed and upgraded systems for standard vehicles came to a stand still.   Improvements in batteries took a lead role for a while, and now Electric Vehicles.

I would think unless we have a major improvement in batteries, maybe Lithium Ion but Abosbed Glass Mat work on higher CCA, 12 volts is going to be our standard for a long time. 

I haven't read further, YET, but with all the electronics on board there new vehicles and people wanting more and more improvements in these systems WHY haven't we already changed over.

Chris, you mentioned extra batteries, who, what, when, where, are more batteries used, other than larger truck, Lorries ?



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2003 EDGE, Std Cab, Steppie, E4 Red, 5sp, 4x
5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK; now Mike's Welding and Fabrication.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
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 Posted: Sat Feb 29th, 2020 10:02 am
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I wonder what Tesla uses for their internal electronics as far as voltage. They are ahead of several games.



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most e cars use 48v battery banks to run the wheel motors
I LOVE my lithium ion batteries, they outperform the flooded lead acid that came with this house 3:1
meaning it used to take 6 hours + of generator run time to charge up 16ea 6 volt batteries flooded lead acid
Now it takes 2 hours of generator run time to charge up 8ea 12 volt lithium ion batteries, and the battery bank powers the house for twice as long!!!
This reduced the amount of sun we need and the amount of propane to run the generator during the winter (less sun)
Also reduces wear and tear on the generator plus the batteries are 30# each instead of 60# and they take up 1/3 of the space in the shop!!
Big up front cost, about double the cost of flooded lead acid, 1.5 times the cost of good AGM batteries.... I am very happy with the choice to run Lithium Ion, it is not easy to spend $3600 for 8 batteries without justifying the choice, most of the off grid solar dudes I talked to said I was crazy....but I had faith in the new tech and I am glad I went that route.



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 Posted: Sat Feb 29th, 2020 10:44 am
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I'm waiting for Mr. Fusion.

With a focus on electric vehicles being here and now regardless of the direction politics takes our country, I believe it is only a matter of time before there are more choices for energy storage. Good thing it will never be an "on line" thing, the only way to store energy with earth technology is physical containers. LIB's have come a LONG way since the first really bad laptop batteries.



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JAMMAN wrote:
I wonder what Tesla uses for their internal electronics as far as voltage. They are ahead of several games.
From the Web readings, most of the vehicles that adopted the higher voltages still reduced it for the electronics and other electrical devices.

The 48 volt batteries, used in the electric vehicles and charged by a 120 volt Plug-In, was talked about as a standard back in the 90's, is just under what the standards calls out as the 50 volt limit, there is a shock factor over 50 volts with DC, beyond me but an interesting read.



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5" SuperLift, 33" x 12.50 x 15"
Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK; now Mike's Welding and Fabrication.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
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 Posted: Sat Feb 29th, 2020 12:29 pm
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Scrambler82 wrote:
Chris, you mentioned extra batteries, who, what, when, where, are more batteries used, other than larger truck, Lorries ?
Only in commercial diesels over here, they use 2 big 12v batteries to run 24v.

If you wanted to run 48v you would need 4 batts unless you make up a 48v battery with 24 2v cells.

Li-on packs need electronics to charge safely so that route is also an expensive one.

It's not just shock hazard - it is bad enough when a 12v battery gets an accidental short - can you imagine the result of getting a spanner between live and earth on 48v?




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Interesting enough... I tough batteries were getting smaller !



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Hurst Shifter
Mod'd Backrack to fit Steppie
Front and Rear Bumpers by Custom 4x4 Fabrication, OK; now Mike's Welding and Fabrication.
Working on more Mods, just need more time, longer days would work !
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Ford-Rangers.com Ranger Forum > Tech Section > Electrical Tech > 12 volts sucks

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