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Tsquare
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MaDMaXX wrote: Midway have got another 5.56 promotion on again.
They have IMI M193 and M855, $0.24 to $0.27 per round, 450 round and 1,200 round lots. Plus free shipping!!!

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?promotionid=1206908Be aware IMI is very hot ammo. This is all 5.56 which is hotter than .223 Win. Do not fire it in a barrel that is not marked 5.56
I do like the IMI brass for reloading. It is very good quality and requires a couple of extra steps on the case prep the first time I load it but it is good stuff.

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Posted: Fri Feb 2nd, 2018 07:04 pm

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Yeah, there are some neck specs that can be\are different between the two as well as how hot NATO spec is, fortunately most barrels are going to be 5.56.

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Posted: Sat Feb 3rd, 2018 02:47 am

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Tsquare
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A steady diet of IMI will shorten the life of a barrel. Max pressure loads put a lot of stress on the internals. They also usually run hotter and a hot barrel will wear more because of the thermal expansion. A barrel that is slugged at .223" will shrink in size as it gets hot and the metal expands. The hotter it gets the smaller it will become. A bullet that is .224" develops a lot more pressure exiting a .222" barrel.

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Posted: Sat Feb 3rd, 2018 04:40 am

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TheArcticWolf1911
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Do you know of any particular barrels or style of barrels that would handle the IMI better? Perhaps a heavy profile barrel to better deal with cooling?

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Posted: Sat Feb 3rd, 2018 05:01 am

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It's only going to be a problem if you're rapid firing, a regular 5.56 rated barrel will handle it fine.

I'm not aware of IMI being hotter than other 5.56, rather, it's 5.56 NATO, it's a standard, as such the standard is loaded hotter than .223 rem.

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Posted: Sat Feb 3rd, 2018 09:48 pm

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Tsquare
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I went to see about a new Bushmaster. It didn't work out as the add was misleading.

Attachment: 30bgvty.jpg (Downloaded 41 times)

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Posted: Sat Feb 3rd, 2018 11:25 pm

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chris

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Tsquare wrote: A steady diet of IMI will shorten the life of a barrel. Max pressure loads put a lot of stress on the internals. They also usually run hotter and a hot barrel will wear more because of the thermal expansion. A barrel that is slugged at .223" will shrink in size as it gets hot and the metal expands. The hotter it gets the smaller it will become. A bullet that is .224" develops a lot more pressure exiting a .222" barrel.
Really? Does the barrel only heat on the internal surface or does the metal get uniformly hot - having never even seen a gun, I have no idea!

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Posted: Sun Feb 4th, 2018 03:18 am

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Haha, i take it they didn't want to honour that Bushmaster deal then? :P

Chris, it heats all the way through, it's only metal, but obviously the heat starts on the inside, friction and explosion causes it.

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Posted: Sun Feb 4th, 2018 04:35 am

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TheArcticWolf1911
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I would think with a heavy profile barrel and a reasonable amount of self control on your rate of fire would keep any longevity issues to a minimum.

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Posted: Sun Feb 4th, 2018 06:43 am

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Running .223 through a 5.56 rated firearm is going to prolong it's life. Saying that 5.56 NATO will shorten it's life isn't really the right way of looking at it. It's literally rated for that.

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Posted: Sun Feb 4th, 2018 09:38 pm

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Tsquare
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The IMI ammo issue was bugging me and I did a search over on AR15.com and found some threads from last summer and a couple of previous years on overly hot 5.56 and other ammo.

This is not the first overly hot 5.56 loads IMI has produced. The most recent was a recall last summer on IMI 5.56 ammo Lot: 00212/G . This ammo was hot enough that it flattens primers, leaks gas around the primers, or blows crimped primers out. Previous problems was IMI razor core 77gr 5.56 Lot 00229/F that was sold 2013/14. IMI 7.62x51 ammo Lot: 00403/E in 2015 had the same issues.

DPMS had added IMI to their list of ammo that voids their warranty prior to last summers recall. To be fair DPMS has a fairly big list of ammo that will void it warranty. DPMS

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Posted: Mon Feb 5th, 2018 01:29 am

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Good to know, I have a few batches, I should check them.

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Posted: Mon Feb 5th, 2018 02:37 pm

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TheArcticWolf1911
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....Yeah, I'll be staying away from IMI. If I want uber hot loads that do that, I'll make 'em myself.

In other news, my short reach trigger, snap caps, fiocchi 9mm, and 9mm bore brush will be here tomorrow. I'm looking forward to installing the new trigger and seeing how easy it'll be to actually reach the trigger in double action. Not changing any springs, just the trigger itself.

Speaking of the 92, I'm trying to decide on a holster. I can get a DeSantis thumb break leather holster from midway for about 60 dollars. On the other hand, I can snag a custom hand-made holster from Savoy for about 150.

Decisions decisions....

https://www.savoyleather.com/product/eagle-patriot-black-gold-silver/

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/2375143440/desantis-thumb-break-scabbard-belt-holster

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Posted: Mon Feb 5th, 2018 02:47 pm

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Oh, outside any batch issues, beware of how you think about extra hot loads. 5.56 NATO is a standard, it's not a problem, it's what the standard dictates.

I still think carrying a full size is crazy, but there are certainly people who do ;)

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Posted: Mon Feb 5th, 2018 10:42 pm

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Tsquare
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But the problem with commercial NATO standard is that it ain't. You wont find SAAMI specs on 5.56x45. The military standard (MIL-C-63989 Rev. C) for M-855 is 3000fps plus or minus 40fps at 78 feet from the end of the muzzle with a 40 fps standard deviation. Which is also the NATO standard.

Lake City has 62gr M-855 listed with 3,020 fps. IMI has their 62gr M855 listed at 2817 fps. I have chrono'd LC M855 and got 3028 fps. I was using an 18" barrel instead of the mil spec requirement of a 20" barrel which should pump it up a little bit more. But I was also measuring 10 to 15 feet from my muzzle.

I have not chrono'd IMI M855 and I have a few boxes of it. I am planning to go to the range tomorrow and I will chrono a box to see what it is running.

On a side note, I load my .223 a half grain below recommended max load for the powder/bullet weight combination and I am averaging 2890fps with a standard deviation of 28 fps. It gives me a 3/4" MOA. I am spot on with what my reloading manuals say I should be getting with my .223 but I seriously doubt I am loading hotter than IMI M855.

Last edited on Mon Feb 5th, 2018 10:43 pm by Tsquare

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Posted: Mon Feb 5th, 2018 11:47 pm

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Yeah, agreed on the SAAMI stuff, but it's an American standard, so we'd struggle to find that one.

Really curious what your findings are with the IMI, a Chrono isn't something i'm likely to get soon ;)

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Posted: Tue Feb 6th, 2018 09:22 am

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Tsquare
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I have been using them since the mid 90's. It makes working up a safe load much easier.

Back when the 45GAP came out I was one of the early adopters. About 9 months after I had gotten my gun I confirmed with RCBS that my 45acp dies would work for the GAP. I had about 2k in spent brass and the rest of the components on the shelf.

I contacted Speer and talked to one of their reloading experts on possible loads for 45GAP. They were still working on load data and the expert suggested I use 10% below max data for 45ACP+P as a max powder charge, look for overpressure signs, especially the "Glock Smile". If I was getting a Glock Smile on the spent brass I was about 15% over what should be a max powder load.

This kind of freaked me out because of the pressure spikes that can happen with the faster powder Speer was recommending. The Speer expert also told me the GAP specs were throttled back to 45ACP+P values or slightly below to keep people from trying to load the hotter GAP ammo in their ACP's so there was little chance of a blowout.

All but one of my early loads fell right in line with what eventually got published. The one that didn't was too low at almost a grain lower that the recommended starting load. I was also trying to make my GAP ammo more consistent with ACP standards and not the ACP+P. I couldn't have done this without a chronograph.

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Posted: Tue Feb 6th, 2018 12:54 pm

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TheArcticWolf1911
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603 uppers are back in stock! Project Vietnam will finally come to life within 3-5 business days. Whoop whoop!

EDIT: Got my Wilson Combat short reach trigger in, and it appears I'll need another part to make it work. The stock trigger has a ledge in the back which the one leg stock trigger reset spring rests on, the other resting on the frame. Without the ledge there the trigger won't reset via spring tension.
Looked up the spring and nearly fell out of my chair. $20 for a spring! Not a pack, a SINGLE spring. Jesus....

Last edited on Tue Feb 6th, 2018 04:40 pm by TheArcticWolf1911

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Posted: Tue Feb 6th, 2018 07:09 pm

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Tsquare wrote: The military standard (MIL-C-63989 Rev. C) for M-855 is 3000fps plus or minus 40fps at 78 feet from the end of the muzzle with a 40 fps standard deviation. Which is also the NATO standard.

Lake City has 62gr M-855 listed with 3,020 fps. IMI has their 62gr M855 listed at 2817 fps. I have chrono'd LC M855 and got 3028 fps.

I have not chrono'd IMI M855 and I have a few boxes of it. I am planning to go to the range tomorrow and I will chrono a box to see what it is running.
Interesting results. I had 10 boxes of IMI M855. Lot #'s 00234/F and 00231/F that I have had for at least 3 years but I bought 5 boxes of each. I shot 10 rounds of each. One at the beginning of my session and the second an hour and a half latter at the end of the session so I would have a cool gun for first round on both. Outdoor range and about 50 degrees. Both gave just over 1 MOA groupings.

234/F gave 3 errors but of the 7 good readings they averaged 3132 fps, with a spread of 135, and a standard deviation of 30.9

231/F gave 1 error but the remaining 9 averaged 2958 fps, with a spread of 129 and a standard deviation of 36.8

So I guess it is crap shoot with IMI. Lot 234/F was higher than the MIL standard maximum velocity by 92 fps but it was within the standard deviation. Lot 231/F missed the bottom end of the Mil standard by 2 fps on average but while being within the standard deviation requirement it had a higher SD.

I am surprised there is that much difference between the two lot numbers. I bought both on sale within a few weeks of each other but I do not remember where but I think it was a big box sporting goods store. If I had not gotten the chrony errors the numbers could also be 5 to 40 points one way or the other with the velocity average.

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Posted: Tue Feb 6th, 2018 10:32 pm

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TheArcticWolf1911
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Well, I've got a spring headed my way. My mother was having an issue with her phone and by sheer luck I knew how to fix it, so my father went ahead and bought the spring for me. I should have it by this weekend.

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Posted: Tue Feb 6th, 2018 11:03 pm

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Interesting - and, i think *most*of my IMI is 55gr.

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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2018 08:46 am

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Tsquare
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I am split between 55gr and 62 gr .223 bullets. My Bushmaster likes the 62gr a bit better. I also have a Mini-14 and it will eat almost anything but it does have problems with lacquered steel cased ammo loading up with lacquer in the chamber. It has gotten nothing but brass for the past 20 or so years. I leave the commie block ammo to commie block guns.

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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2018 01:05 pm

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TheArcticWolf1911
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I tend to buy 55gr simply because that's the most common grain that I can find.

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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2018 08:22 pm

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Tsquare
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The 55 gr bullets are more popular and cheaper, even in the reloading components. If the 62 gr were within a dollar or 2 per thousand I would have nothing but 62 gr. I have about 1k in factory ammo and another potential 3k in hand-loaded ammo for 223/5.56, in the past few weeks I have been loading up my 223 and it was 1k of 55gr and 1k of 62gr. I had gotten down to just enough inventory to keep most of my magazines loaded. I still have a pile to load but I am tired of loading 223.

I used to shot about 3k per year of 223 but I got more into pistol back in the 2010 ammo drought. I also got rid of my Dutch ArmaLite AR-10 as it was setup for long range shooting and I did not have a 1000 yard range within 3 hours of where I lived and it had been a safe queen for about 15 years. I went to a medium range caliber with the 6.8SPC and I have been shooting it more than the 223.

Last edited on Wed Feb 7th, 2018 08:24 pm by Tsquare

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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2018 09:41 pm

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TheArcticWolf1911
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I have to ask. How can you afford to shoot that much? I know reloading makes it a little cheaper, but jeez it sounds like you shoot more in a year than I ever could in a lifetime.

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